fl.—l9b.

50

[j. P. FKENGLEA*

going round with me that they had had more than fifty i-n a hut. I have no knowledge of any other occasion when a hut contained more than fifty-five men, apart from this one —no personal knowledge, 13. The Chairman.] Did you condemn the practice of putting more than fifty men in a hut? Who would be responsible for that number going into one hut—the medical authorities or the military authorities ? —Most, certainly, the medical authorities. 14. This was after the infection had started?— Yes. 15. Dr. Martin.] Do you think the medical authorities were responsible for that?— Certainly, the medical authorities should have been asked whether it, was safe or not, 16. But the officer in charge of the company ought to know?—l could not say. 17. Mr. Ferguson,.] You think the medical men should be asked before more than fifty are put in there?— Yes, they should be consulted. Otherwise it is possible for any one to put in very nearly a hundred men. The buildings will hold easily a hundred men, but that is not what they were designed for. 18. Dr. Martin.] But this could occur frequently 7 without the doctors knowing it? —I do not deny that. 19. The doctors would have no method of finding out, whether more than fifty men were in a hut?— But Ido not think that Trentham Camp was so badly disciplined as to allow that to go on. 20. The Chairman.] Without somebody 7 's consent or knowledge? —That is so. 21. Mr. Ferguson.] You have no personal knowledge from your military knowledge as to what the military duties of a medical man would be? —No, sir. 22. Dr. Martin.] This may become a definite charge against the medical men : can you give me the names of the medical men who went round that evening?— Captain Bogle, in the presence of Major Stout and Captain Simpson, now with the hospital ship. I asked Captain Bogle, and he said there had been other cases, but I cannot, say when, nor have I any further information more than the fact, that, I then found fifty-five men in one hut. 23. Mr. Ferguson.] But did he know the number from his own knowledge?—T asked him if there had been more than fifty in a hut at any 7 one time and he said " Yes." 24. Did Captain Bogle himself know there were more than fifty, or did he ask ?—I requested to be shown a full hutment, and he brought me to this one himself, No. 33. 25. Dr. Martin.] But unless there had been any sickness in that hut, could Captain Bogle have known of the overcrowding officially?— No. 26. The military put their men into these huts—fifty to each hut —but the Medical Officer ■does not inspect those hutments unless there are any men sick there. As far as your knowledge goes, there had been no sickness in this hut?—No; they were all sleeping comfortably. 27. Then there was no blame attachable to Captain Bogle or the medical men?—No; I could not assess the blame. 28. The medical men are not to blame for overcrowding in this particular hut ?—I say there should not have been over fifty 7in that hut. 29. But you say that you think the Medical Officers were responsible?— Yes. 30. Why?—l gave that as an opinion—that the Medical Officers would have been consulted; I cannot say whether it was a fact, 31. Tf these men were put into that hutment without, consulting the Medical Officers then the military were to blame?— Yes. 32. Did you hear whether the military had consulted the Medical Officers on ihis occasion? —I believe I did, but I am not sure. 33. You see the importance of your definite charge?— Yes. 34. Can you give me the name of the military divisional officer for the day—the orderlyofficer? —No; I only went round with these medical men. 35. Lieut.-Colonel Potter was Commandant of the camp?— Yes. I went out on a close night, and I am satisfied from the condition in which I found the air there in (hat hut that to have such a number of men confined in that hut under such meteorological conditions was dangerous to the health of the men. It was decidedly close in there, with fifty-five men. 36. There was no wind blowing?— That is so. Tdo not say it was injurious Io their health with fifty-five men in the one hut. 37. Mr. Ferguson,.] You mentioned 4 in. as being the space right round: is that what the huts were built with?— That is what our plan shows them as having. 38. Dr. Martin.] That is the only occasion on which you went round at night?— Yes. 39\ Was it in consequence of something that you had heard that you went, out? —Yes. 40. The Chairman.] There had been a complaint then? —That too much air was being admitted. It was not exactly a complaint, It was in consequence of a report that I went out. 41. Dr. Martin.] This was at the time after the epidemic of cerebro-spinal meningitis had been diagnosed ? —No ; at that time every one was beginning to be nervous about, it, 42. There were six deaths in AA r ellington Hospital in June, and it was at this time that you make tho definite statement, that the hut, was overcrowded? —Yes, with five men over the number allowed. 43. The Chairman.] Did you count, them? —They were counted by Captain Bogle and Captain Simpson separately, who reported outside that there were fifty-five. 44. Did you try another hutment? —I did, and found only thirty-three. I then tried the sergeant-major's rooms, and I found (that was the so-called sample hut in which mistakes were made) that they had boarded up every opening, and of the eighteen movable panes of glass only one was opened, and that only about 4 in. The consequence was that that hut, which contained only nineteen men, was as stuffy as the one with thirty-three, where the windows were open all tlie way to the top, and nearly as bad as the one with fifty-five men. I regard that as