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and good school at twenty minutes to 9, and there was another train leaving that station at a quarter to 4. There could not have been any conditions more perfect, yet there was strong opposition to the idea of conveying the children by train. The settlers got their new school; but I consider .that it was a bad thing for the children, and that the building of the school was waste of money. But the people were very strong in their feeling that they wanted something local; as long as they do not have to pay anything for it the settlers of every little hamlet will put on very strong pressure to get their own little school. 99. As the cost of teaching engineering is necessarily very great, would it not be preferable to have one recognized school of engineering in the Dominion, and by means of scholarships assist the students to attend? —Yes; I have gone very fully into that matter. We are recognizing provisionally in Auckland the classes in engineering that are to some extent of University rank, or are said to be of University rank—recognizing them temporarily, because otherwise we might shut out students from any education of the kind. But there is a recognized school in connection with the University — recognized by the Institute of Civil Engineers, by the Institute of Electrical Engineers, and by the Institute of Mechanical Engineers, so that it has an Imperial standing. I think the best way would be to pay for scholarships at that school. The Canterbury School of Engineering has already cost over £30,000 for building, equipment, and apparatus. They are going to spend another £5,000 on apparatus and equipment, which will bring the cost up to nearly £40,000. The interest on £40,000 at 5 per cent, is £2,0*00 a year. The expenditure on salaries and upkeep at that institution is now nearly £4,000 a year. Probably when it is fully equipped and fully worked the cost will be £5,000 a year. Thus you have practically £7,000 a year. The school is turning out professional engineers, not merely workshop foremen. In the three branches I do not see how the requirements of New Zealand could possibly reach thirty professional engineers a year. Taking the number at thirty, each qualified engineer would cost over £200. 100. The Chairman.] Can you say how many students there are at present?— There are two kinds —diploma students, who do not get the degree, but get the diploma of Associate of Engineering, and those who do get the degree. Those who get the diploma of associate are recognized by the Institutes to a certain extent, and the degree itself is recognized entirely. From the report I find that twenty matriculated students were studying last year for the University, and the total number of students was twenty-six. The course is four years, so that is only about six a year. 101. Mr. Kirk.] I take it that there must be some necessary overlapping in the Dominion as far as the teaching of engineering is concerned? —The professional course is not taken anywhere else, except as regards certain subjects in Auckland. 102. Not in the technical schools?— That would not be overlapping. Engineering subjects ought to be taught in the technical schools, because we have all the stages below that of the professional engineer. In most of the older countries the professional engineer reaches his final qualifications by a different road altogether. He begins by a thorough scientific training. He gets a longer training in pure science, or he goes through the University, whereas the number who become professional engineers by going through the workshops is quite small. But I should open the University engineering school to the clever workman who has shown in the workshop and in the technical school his fitness to enter the profession. I consider that there should be an engineering school for apprentices and foremen even where there is an engineering school of University rank, perhaps in connection with the latter. 103. Is there any overlapping in Auckland, for instance?—l do not think there is. If there were, the Minister has power under the Act to refuse to recognize the class. The very reason whyhe is recognizing the engineering classes at the University, is that the standard is different from that of the technical schools. 104. Is there no overlapping in Auckland as between the University and the Technical School? —Yes, but I do not think it should lead to the establishment of an engineering school in Auckland. T know that that is contrary to the opinion of some people in Auckland, but I put my objection on the ground of expense. It would be better to give a student from Auckland sufficient money to pay the whole of his expenses in Christchurch. 105. Mr. Wells.] Would you carry that to the associateship standard?—l should like to know what course it was—whether it was the sort of training that would lead on to the professional engineer. I think that every kind entraining should be given at the technical school, and that there should be those schools wherever there are engineering-works. 106. Mr. Kirk.] As to the cost of administering the Department, are you satisfied that value is being obtained by the State for every pound spent upon the Department in its various branches, or have you any recommendation to make?—lf you mean the personnel, I am asked to give evidence on that very point before the Public Service Commission. 107. I mean as to the education system ?—I think it would be better if a little more were spent upon the Department. 108. Do you think the Central Department is undermanned? —I do. I think that the heads and the semi-heads of branches have to work so much outside recognized office-hours that it should be more fully manned. 109. Mr. Wells.] As to the revenue from the reserves, would there be any gain in grouping the reserves?—AH the education reserves under the first head I gave are managed now by the Land Boards. 110. Could all the reserves be under the management of one body?— The reasons for that would be a land question, not an education question. 111. Could they be administered by the Boards? —The Boards do not deal otherwise with land questions, and questions of tenure and treatment of tenants, whereas the Land Boards do. If I were a member of an Education Board I should not want to have anything to do with land.

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