1.—13 a.

6

[A. P.^WEBSTKIt.

2. Mr. Allen.\ In the compilation of the statement oi' University revenue, have you taken out the different accounts for tne schools and bodies governed by Canterbury College? —We nave not taken any account of the Public Library and various other matters. \ve have been careful to include what strictly belongs to Canterbury College as distinguished from other branches. 3. I'ou did not include the School of Art'/ —J\ T o. 4. Nor the Engineering School I —The Engineering School is in. 5. Specialized schools are in J —Yes. That is one of the difficulties 1 emphasize in what 1 have stated. We admit that we may have made mistakes. We found ourselves often up against a brick wall when endeavouring to determine whether a particular item should or should not go in; but so far as Professor baby—who has the technical knowledge —and 1, looking at the matter as a practical layman outside, are concerned, we endeavoured to make a fair statement of what might properly be regarded as university expenditure. t>. Canteroury College has an income of .£9,300: can you say whether that is income purely from provincial endowments for Canterbury College, or does it include other endowments?— Thai 1 cannot answer. These tigures were taken from the Government return iasl session, which embodies returns from the colleges. 7. Does it include anything in regard to the Public Library or the School of Art J —-No. Of course, we accepted the figures as they appeared in the account. 8. Can you say whether they separate those endowments and show how much is for Canterbury College, the Public Library, School of Art, and so on? —1 cannot say. 9. If that cannot be worked out, is it not unfair to say that the expenditure was for G7 per cent, of the population in the North and ;S3 per cent, in the South? You have in the South, owing to the colleges having been established earlier, the two cosily schools of Engineering and Medicine. Victoria College, you said, served a very large number oi people in New Zealand, and so it does; but is it correct to say that the Medical School in Otago ami the Engineering School in Canterbury serve only South Island students? —1 cannot answ< r dial categorically. luo not know how many medical students go there from the North. 10. The schools are for the whole of the Dominion and not for those particular colleges?— We have not got the figures to show what percentage of students go from the North, but 1 have no doubt there are some. 11. With regard to the Otago University, you have included £7,100 as provincial endowments and note that they include " £1,800 Presbyterian Church grant." Do you include those in endowments? —A fixed amount had to be contributed in connection with some of the trusts. 12. No; they had certain trusts and utilized the money for a certain purpose —they weir not tied down to the Otago University? —1 understand there was some arrangement of that kind. 13. You want some returns. 1 do not know that the Department publishes the returns of the different colleges, but lam sure that Otago sends up details of each department. The schools are charged with salaries and credited with expenses? —So far as Canterbury College was concerned, our difficulty was that there were so many statements, and apparently there were many crossentries for rent, &c, so that it became a very difficult matter to say what was the position. 14. 'lhe average salary here, you said, was £225 lower than in Australia. Have you included in the salaries here the fees the professors receive, in some places at least, in addition to their ordinary salaries ?—Yes. 15. How could you do that with regard to Otago? Where did you get it from? —They used not to show it, but—after this agitation began, 1 understand —in the last return they did show it. We noticed there was a difference in the way the returns were sent in. 16. Mr. J. C. '/.'/to/tixDii .] Are pensions paid in the universities of Australia.' — They have a scheme of pensions. 17. And they are payable now? —Yes, they are provided for in their constitution. 18. Are pensions paid in the Old Country too? —That I cannot say. 19. You made a statement with regard to the deficiency in salaries and the absence of pensions here. Do you think that a high salary, with the knowledge that there will be a substantial pension after a given number of years' service, makes for the highest efficiency? —I should say that is so, distinctly —that is to say, where the activity is one where the position is essentially an intellectual one. The peace of mind and the feeling that one's family and wife are not at the mercy of misfortune and accident would distinctly make for efficiency in the work of an honest and zealous individual engaged in university or teaching work generally. That is a view which is affirmed with reiterated emphasis as the result of inquiry by the Carnegie Trust. I would recommend the bulletin on salaries and pensions issued by the Carnegie Trust to the attention of this Committee. 20. The Chairman. J You spoke of the fewer endowments in the North Island as compared with those in the South. You admit, o£ course, that it was through the foresight of the founders of the University institutions in the South thai these endowments were provided in the early days? Undoubtedly. My argument is not that there should be fewer in the South, lint more in the North. 21. Do you suggest that, though the founders of the educational institutions in the South had the foresight to provide these endowments, no consideration should be given to them in the allocations to the four colleges? —I am only drawing attention to the fact that the finance in the North is a much more difficult matter for the University Colleges, because they have only £400 or .£5OO coming in from endowments. For everything else they have to depend upon the fees or go cap in hand to the Government. 22. In making allocations from the public funds for carrying on the various colleges, do you consider that no consideration should be paid to the South owing to the fact that provision was made out of the local funds for the upkeep of colleges?— The so-called endowments were granted in years gone by under the Provincial Government. Those endowments are in effect State endowments.