19

I.—3a.

F. H. D. BELL.J

is provided for there J —l should have thought it quite plain that it was; but, then, 1 am only giving a legal opinion. 20. It is really a legal opinion lam trying to get —perhaps "on the cheap " ? —1 should have thought it quite plain. lion. Sir J. Carroll: Ido not think there is any dispute about that. The Government could not have got the lessees' interest for nothing. Mr. Massey wants to make it quite clear that we could have determined the lessees' interest, apparently, without paying for it. Mr. Massey: Oh, no, Ido not say that. I must put the section in evidence to meet the suggestion that has been made by the Native Minister. It is as follows :" If any land so purchased by the Crown " —that is, Native land —" remains subject to any lease or license, the Minister of Lands may, if in his opinion the land is required for immediate settlement, determine that lease or license by notice under his hand delivered to the lessee or licensee, and to all persons having any legal estate or interest in the lease or license. (2.) The lessee or licensee and all other persons having any estate or interest in the lease or license so determined shall thereupon be entitled to compensation in accordance with the Public Works Act, 1908, in the same manner as if the land had been European land taken by the Crown for a public work, and all the provisions of the said Act shall, with all necessary modifications, and so far as applicable, apply accordingly. (3.) Every claim for compensation under this section must be made within twelve months after the determination of the lease or license in pursuance of the notice aforesaid." My point is that if the Government had purchased the freehold interest under this section they could have determined the leases, and compensation would have be.jn arrived at in the same manner as when land is taken under the Public Works Act. I ask that that section be put in evidence. [Statutes put in. J 21. The Chairman.] With regard to the price: In your experience, Mr. Bell, are the Maoris the only persons who object to the price that the Government offer to pay for land when the Government wish to purchase?— No. The valuation of the Government officers for the purpose of purchase, and the valuation of Government officers for the purpose of rating, are two entirely different things. 22. You know that when an estate has been taken under the Land for Settlement Act the price that is put on it is in some cases an extraordinary one. Would the Maoris do anything unusual in endeavouring also to get a very high price for their land? —No. If you are putting it to me that the Government pay a fair price for Maori land — well, I do not know; but the Maoris do not think the Government do. 23. In connection with the Maori Land Board : Is it unusual in your experience for the Board to have frequent meetings with the Natives when dealing with the disposal of their lands? —iNo, it is not unusual, but I have never known of a case like this, of a Maori Land Board trying to persuade Maoris against their will to sell their land for a sum. 24. Hon. Sir J. Carroll: I think I must take exception to that statement, because Mr. Bell, I think, is not in a position to say that the Maori Land Board did persuade the Natives?— No; I think that is correct. I ought not to say that the Board did. I say that the whole of the evidence before me shows that that was what they were engaged in doing—persuading the Natives that it was for their benefit that they should sell the land. 25. That is evidence you gather from correspondence between yourself and your clients?— Not only that, but from the circumstances any one could draw that inference. 26. The Chairman.] In regard to attacking the Land Transfer Fund, you are aware that proceedings were threatened by parties interested. When the sale was held by the mortgagee proceedings were instituted, and caveat was lodged against the registration of that title to the purchaser. Well, if that had been carried out what would have been the proceeding? Would not the Land Transfer Assurance Fund have been assailed? —By Mr. Jones? 27. By any person. Mr. Jones, for instance, did lodge the caveat?—He could not have recovered against the fund. The document registered was a document which Mr. Jones had executed. He could get the document set aside, but he could not recover. 28. If the Court had'sustained Mr. Jones in his contention, would not Mr. Jones have had a clear case against the Assurance Fund? —Absolutely none whatever—at least, that is my humble opinion. I do not think it is arguable that Mr. Jones could have had a case against the Assurance Fund. He had a case against the people who were registered. 29. With regard to some of the Maoris not agreeing to a sale, is it not frequently the case that some Maoris interested in a block object to sell, and that they are protected even by statute now at the present time from being cut out of any block? —If they are landless? 30. Yes? —If you are asking me whether the Act of 1909 has not created a great change in the law, I say that it has. Before, a recalcitrant owner could require his interest to be cut out. The effect of the Act of 1909 is to enable people to sell his land over a Native's head without his consent. 31. By resolution of a majority of the Maoris interested? —Yes, the minority disappears. 32. Mr. Herrits.] A majority of those present? —Yes. 33. Hon. Sir J. Carroll.] You said that the Board forced this sale through. In what way did it force the sale through that you are aware of? —The Board, after the first meeting, adjourned for a second meeting. The resolution was not passed at the time of the second meeting, and they adjourned for a third meeting. The Board, between the second and third meeting, knew that the Natives were without independent advice, and they knew that the Natives were changing their opinion and were being persuaded to change their opinion. 34. How do you know that the Board knew they were changing their opinion?— The Board had before it what took place at the first and the second meetings. The object of holding the third meeting was that the Natives' opinion should bo chnnged. What other object could there be?