I.—3a.

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128. Mr. Masxey.] You are quite clear of the date on which this conversation took place? You say it was the Bth December.' Be was jumping into his motor-car as he was leaving Parliament Iliiiisc. I cannot mistake the date. 129. Did Sir Joseph Ward ;it any time while these negotiations were going on, or while you were pressing him to agree to the offer made by the people in England—did he intimate that he as Prime Minister could aot consent to parting with the minerals?- —Yes. 1 put the question to him-—Mr. Carroll was not there. I said. " You might as well give me these minerals in fee." ■■ No," he said. " 1 cannot do that. There is a fueling on the part of the public against alienating the fee-simple of any minerals. 1 cannot do that. But I will tell you what: I will extend your present lease to the original term, and give you a further extension beyond that on your building a harbour.' , 1 was satisfied with that. 130. Sii Joseph Ward at that time declined to allow the minerals to be parted with? —He said lie could not agree to the fee-simple of the minerals being let go. 131. Hon. Sir J. Carroll.] That was assuming it was made Crown land? —Yes, that was the basis of the discussion that he would purchase. That was the basis of the discussion and the agreement. 132. What agreement? —The agreement that he was agreeable to, pursuant to this cable from London —that he would purchase the freehold. You had not come down from Gisborne then. That was when he said that the public objected to the freehold of the minerals being parted with. That is the agreement I refer to. 133. A verbal agrement?—Hold on : there was a written document showing what the terms were. 134. Mr. Massey.\ Can you put that document in?—l will do so. It is repeated in another letter, dated the 22nd June, 1910, from Mr. Treadwell to the Prime Minister. [Copy of letter put in.] 135. Do you know anything of an offer having been made to the Government by Mr. Jennings on behalf of a Mr. Kemp Welch, who was agent for Mr. Flower?—l know what Mr. Jennings told me. 136. Is it in writing?—No; I have no documentary evidence of it—only what Mr. Jenningt told me. 137. What did Mr. Jennings tell you?—He said he had got a document from Mr. Kemp Welch to offsr the property to the Government. 138. Mr. Kemp Welch was Flower's trustee?—No; he was one of the executors of the will. 139. Is he a resident of New Zealand? —No; a London man. 140. He has resided in New Zealand, though? —For a short time. He came out for a trip. 141. It has been stated that Mr. Justice Parker, an English Justice, in his official capacity gave it as his opinion on the Ist November, 1907, that you were entitled to redeem your interest in the property, though the mortgagee had sold such interest at New Plymouth on the 10th August of that year? —Mr. Justice Parker made an order. I have it here. 142. Will you put it in?— Yes. I have his order to that effect. He had all the information that was before these Judges, save and except the transfer to Herrman Lewis. [Document put in.] 143. It has been stated that £5,000 was expended on the property by Mr. Wickham Flower, or the people with whom he was connected—expended in developing the property by making surveys and so on : is that statement correct, or was the £5,000 part of the mortgage?— Yes. The Committee ought to understand the whole thing on that point. This man Flower defrauded me. He said he bought the property here at auction on the 28th April, 1893. He said he bought it for himself, whereas in reality he bought it for me and charged me a thousand guineas for doing it. He was subsequently held guilty of fraud by the High Court for having done so and acted in such a manner. With regard to the £5,000 :In the interim I went to him with every penny due to him. I took a solicitor with me named Jellicoe. He went to the National Bank of NewZealand in London, made arrangements, and found the money, and went to Flower. Flower said, " I will not take it. The property is mine." Mr. Jellicoe argued the point with him. He said, " You bought that property as solicitor for Jones." " No," said Flower, " I bought it for myself." This was in August, J893. On the 16th September, while this money was available for him, he sent a cable out here to get the land surveyed. I warned him. I said, " You mind what you are about. I will never'pay for that survey. You have no right to do it. You have no right to assume ownership." He did not care a button about me; he did survey the land. And that is this £5,000, or whatever it cost. He expended that money improperly, while he was trustee for me and while the money due to him was lying available, lhat is the point I wish to make. 144. Do you know of a Government surveyor making an estimate of the coal and limestone on your block —Mokau-Mohakatino? —Mr. Park and Mr. Skeet. 145. But since then? —No. I believe it has been examined twice for valuation purposes, but I never knew anything about it. 146. You have no knowledge of any estimate being made of the coal on the block?— No. 147. Do you know whether any land was reserved for the use of the Native owners when the property was sold just recently?—No, T do not know.