I.—9a.

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J J WALKLATE

rolling-stock, and also has to get a certificate from the motorman with whom he has been driving, and has to pass a motor inspector, who takes a certain number of trips with him on the road. If he gets a certificate from all these sources he then has to obtain his license from the City Council, and goes on as a motorman 44. Of course, the company has to accept responsibility for its motormen, and we may take it, I suppose, that it is necessary that the company should take very great precautions? —That is so. 45 Will you now make your own observations with regard to clause 2 of the Bill?—The objections that I have to it are that it would institute a dual responsibility in that it would be divided between the Government and the tramway authority It would also place us in a difficulty as regards the conductors who have motormen'"s licenses, and who are not regular drivers, and in many instances it would place us in a difficulty with men who are not motormen and yet at the present time have licenses to drive as motormen —those who are in the shed, and certain of the officers. Of course, a number of other difficulties may turn up. There is the great difficulty of the local conditions that a Government officer presumably would not be conversant with—that is, if it were a central board of examiners. The local conditions are important —more important probably than the actual proficiency they may have in driving a car As I pointed out, each of our conductors is taught to drive a car, but it does not follow at all that we should allow all those conductors to be actual drivers. 46. Does it follow, for instance, that a man who was competent to drive a car in Christchurch would be competent to drive a car in Auckland? —It does not. As I have just been explaining, owing to the local conditions, if a man from Christchurch or any other centre came to Auckland with excellent references, he would still have to go through just the same routine as one of our motormen He would probably go on as a conductor, and become a motorman if he were generally suitable. 47 If he passed your tests and was found to be satisfactory otherwise?— Yes. 48. I compared Christchurch with Auckland because in Christchurch they have the air brake and in Auckland you may perhaps have it?— That is so. 49 And, notwithstanding the similarity in the braking you say it would not follow that a man from Christchurch would be suitable in Auckland? —Yes. 50 Then compare Wellington, where you have the magnetic brake, and Auckland, where you may have the air brake when 3'ou get the approval : does it follow that a man suitable in Wellington would be suitable in Auckland?— Certainly not. 51 So far as the mere granting of certificates is concerned, so long as it does not in any way hamper the operations of the tramway authorities, have you any objection?— None whatever A man holding a Government certificate would be subject to the same examination by us. 52 Can you see the probability of difficulty arising if a man has a Government certificate and considers that he is entitled to employment, and he has to go through the tests which you think it is necessary to put a man through before you can allow him to rise to the position of motorman? —I should never anticipate that a Government certificate could entitle him to employment, but onlj' as a certificate of proficiency. 53 Might not that depend upon the attitude taken up by the unions? —Of course it might. 54. And can you see the probability of difficulty with the employees if such a section is passed into law? —I can see the possibility of it. 55. You have during your three years of office in Auckland endeavoured to help the men in every possible way and to meet them in every reasonable manner?—We have. 56. And your relations with them, I think, at the present time are most harmonious?— Yes, I think so. 57 Can 3?ou see any advantage in a Government certificate, having regard to the different sets of conditions existing in the different places both as regards levels and brakes, and so on?— I do not see any advantage in the Government certificate l , for the reason that tramway authorities employ a large number of men, and must of necessity—Government certificate or not—conduct their own examinations. It is not the same as with engine-drivers and other such instances where the certificates are issued, because there you are dealing with only a small number of men employed by one employer We deal with such a large number of men that we must satisfy ourselves of their fitness for the positions. 58. Do you see how it is possible for a Board of this kind to satisfactorily examine a motorman ?—No, Ido not, because the examination —if I may use the term —is rather a misnomer it is not an examination so much as a training. 59 Is the examination of a motorman of any use unless it is a practical training extending over a fairly considerable period?—l do not think so. 60. The men pay their own license fees, do they not?— Yes. 61. And under this clause there are also fees to be paid by somebody as a matter of regulation?— Ye s, it is not very clear 62. Have you anything further to say before we pass from clause 2?— No. 63. Do you foresee the probability of difficulties from the dual control which would exist under this clause, inasmuch as, first of all, you have the Government examination, and, secondly, you have a separate licensing authority—the Auckland City Council, for example?— But the licensing is done away with, I take it. It is not clear There would certainly be a conflict if the local authorities issued the license and the Government certificate also came into force. 64. So far as this Bill is concerned, any man may be a motorman so long as he holds a Government certificate? —I do not take it that the Bill says that if he holds a certificate he should become a motorman. 65 Do you think that men would be prepared to pa}' license fees to the City Council in addition to undergoing an examination under this Bill? —I do not suppose they would.