I.—9a.

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[p.FM. MACKAY

89 I understood to say in jour examination that the Corporation gave the license Co every one? —Yes, the Corporation licenses the motorman. 90. Was this man licensed? —I could not give you any opinion. 1 was not in the Council at the time. 91 If he was licensed by the Corporation and had only been driving a week or a fortnight, do you.think that is a proper thing? —I do not know whether he was licensed or not. 92 But if he was licensed and had only had a fortnight's experience, would you consider that sufficient experience for a man to be licensed ! —I do not think it is a fair question. 93 I am. leading up to the question whether the Government should have the power to license motormen ?—You are taking an extraordinary case. 94. I am taking the case of a motorman licensed by the Corporation? —Well, the accident was outside the confines of the city 1 cannot tell you anything about that case. 95. If the Council can give a license to a motorman with a fortnight's experience, do you think it would be right to give the Government power to stop that?— You are trying to pin me down, and I am not going to be pinned down. 96. You are taking an objection to the Government having this power?—l do not take objection. I said in my evidence ■We would not object to certificates of competency being issued as proposed for use throughout the Dominion showing the capabilities of the motorman " —that is, giving the motorman a Dominion license, so that he can travel anywhere with it. 97 Have you any other objection to clause 2 then?— Our objection to it is that it is taking away power from the local bodies to issue, suspend, or cancel, as the case may require, a local license in the same manner as is done with drivers of all other vehicles. 98. Do you mind showing me in clause 2 where that occurs?—lt is a fair deduction to assume. 99 The Committee is merely dealing with the Bill, not making any deduction?- -I say it is a fair deduction to assume. 100. We look upon the facts here: it is purely a matter of assumption from you? —1 think it is a fair deduction, and not a matter of assumption. 101 The. The question is quite clear : The Minister wants to know where, frovn clause 2 of the Bill, you get your deduction? —I think it is a plain matter if the Government license a man, the Council cannot cancel that license. 102 Hon. Mr B McKenzie.] You have not answered the question as to where you get the deduction from ?—ln clause 2 you propose to license motormen I have already pointed out that if the Government license a motorman, then the Council cannot cancel that motorman's license. 103. As a matter of fact, we do not license—we simply give a certificate of competency under clause 2 ?—ln that case we do not object to what is called a Dominion license. 104. Then what is your objection to clause 2, if any? —The objection is an implied one. The power of the local bodies to license motormen is not taken away I understand that. 105. It is protected, as a matter of fact? —But in the course of time it must eventually come to pass that the Government will license. 106. We simply give a certificate of competency?—The Council do not object to that. 107 Then, so far as you are concerned, I gather from you that you have no valid objection to clause 2?— Not with regard to the Dominion license or Dominion certificate. 108. Now we will take clause 3, the inspection of tramways, rolling-stock, &c. : do you ever get any overcrowding in Auckland ?—The cars are licensed to hold a certain number It is then the conductor's duty to see that he does rot carry more. 109 Is it a duty that they perform ?—Usually, in Auckland, it is. In fact, they take the matter into their own hands. 110. Have you ever heard complaints about overcrowding when on the Tramways Committee in Auckland? —No. 111. Did you Inspector report overcrowding?— Once, I think, two cars were stuck up It was at 5 o'clock, just when the artisans were knocking off, and one car was found to have a few more passengers than its licensed number 112 Do you know the licensed number of that car?—l cannot remember just at present, but the cars are licensed according to their size. 113. What action did the Council take on that complaint?—The conductor was taken before the committee, and a report was made upon the matter by the Traffic Inspector The Mayor, who was Chairman of Committees, cautioned the man regarding the matter 114. Was the conductor disrated and dismissed? —No. 115. Was that the only case of overcrowding you had?—As far as I remember 116. Would you be surprised if it was proved that you had carried double the number of passengers your cars are licensed for in some cases?— Well, I do not think it would be possible for the cars to carry double the number 117 Would you be surprised if it was proved they had carried 50 per cent, more than they are licensed for?—l do not think the cars would hold that number 118. Are there no means of hanging on outside the cars?—The outside of the cars is not allowed to be overcrowded in any shape or form—-that is, the double platforms. 119. Do they stand upon the platforms ?—No, I have been put off several times myself The conductor has told me, "You will have to get off; there is no room for you here." I tried to get inside, and asked the conductor if he had any spare room, and he said, " No; you will have to get off." 120. In your opinion, is there any overcrowding on the Auckland trams at any time?— Not so far as I know, and I travel on the cars every day. 121 Are you familiar with the report of the first Royal Commission on Tramway Brakes?— No, I cannot say I am familiar with it.