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UKI'OUT OF PROCEEDINGS OK THE OONFBRENCK.

I'm. CHAIRMAN : 1 thought you were going to open on survey. Mr. LLEWELLYN SMITH : Survey is the first of all. 'flit CHAIRMAN : Of course you have- to take them in detail. After all, some of them I think we should be able to accept; others would require some dis. and others we could adjust, but we have to discuss each of them in detail. Mr. LLEWELLYN SMITH : As regards survey, I mean in the first place to take survey. Could our certificate which applies to passenger ships be accepted in lieu of any requirements as to survey in Australia? I'm; CHAIRMAN: Perhaps Mr. Norman Hill will, on behalf of the shipowners, explain the difficulties which the British shipowners feel at the present moment in reference to this variety of standard regulations. Sir JOSEPH WARD: May 1 suggest that half a dozen points upon which a settlement is required should be named, and then let us ascertain whether it is possible really to have a compromise so as to adjust Imperial law to conform to Colonial law or Colonial law to Imperial. Mil. NORMAN HILL: 1 think Mr. Llewellyn Smith has indicated in those particular regulations to which he has referred the points which are most important. It appears to us as shipowners that we must have regard to the two essentially different types of ship which arcengaged in trade. You have firs! of all the liner which devotes itself to the trade between this country and Australia or New Zealand : it is a very important factor in maintaining communication both for this country and for the Colonies, but that type of vessel, although perhaps looming largest in the public mind, is not the dig cargo carrier of the world. You have, apart from the liner, the very much amount of shipping which is engaged in the trade of the world. Now with regard to the liner, where the practical difficulty comes in is that there is a very large amount of capital invested in the vessel in order to provide the speed anil the accommodation necessary fen the ocean voyage, and it is disastrous from a business point of view- and it. is impossible from a business point of view—to have the liner's voyage interrupted by demands on the time '>f the ship to go through surveys in its ports of call. Of course. Sir, with regard to liners they are- all certificated to carry passengers from this country, and I think a careful examination of our Act, more especially as amended by the Act of last session, would satisfy the Conference that there is a very high standard indeed of efficiency and seaworthiness required from all vessels holding Imperial Board of Trade certificates. I have at different times had fo go very closely indeed into the requirements of other nations, and 1 am satisfied that our standards are substantially higher than tin- standard of any other nation. Well, Sir, when you come to questions of survey applying to that type of vessel, the greatest difficulty— of course the survey is costly—l do not think we should have any fear ot' coining up to the standards but the great and insuperable difficulty is interrupting the voyage and devoting the time. The survey, 1 take it. to beabsolutely effective, as our survey is. would have to take place whilst the vessel was in dry dock. Mi; JOSEPH WARD : Would you allow n,. in- iiie-nt. Under the New Zealand Act it says. Clause 186, "Where a certificate has been granted to any steamship "by the Imperial Board of Trade, and is still in force-. "that steamship need not be again surveyed under this " Act." Mr. LLEWELLYN SMITH : That is so. Mr. NORMAN HILL: That is all right. There is only one more step so far as New Zealand is concerned, and. that is, it is quite possible for us. although a liner, a regular trader, is not in fact carrying passengers, and is not fitted with passenger accommodation, to submit voluntarily that ship to the Board of Trade survey. We cannot get a passenger certificate because we have not got the berthing accommodation and such things, but so far as the safety of the ship, the construction and the materials of which she is constructed, the efficiency of her engines and all such matters are concerned, we can voluntarily pass that ship through exactly the same survey as if she were qualified for a passenger cert ill. ate-. and the Board of Trade will give us a certificate showing

that that vessel conforms to the standard or would conform to the standard if she had berthing accommodation put in. Now as long as that class of vessel is not actually ing possengers, we claim that having voluntarily subjected ourselves to that survey, that that should be treated as a passenger survey. Now. Sir, before you come to the other type there is just one other particular easeto which we would like to refer with regard to passenger ships, and that is the life-saving appliances and regulations. We have recently had a very difficult question arising with the United States Government. It arose particularly with regard to the life belts to be carried on board the ships. The Board of Trade, having carefully considered the matter, decided that we should carry one particular type of life belt; the United States Government having can-fully considered the matter, decided that we si Id carry quite a different type of life belt, and we had come to the point in which the vessels —the very big passenger-carrying vessels engaged between this country and the United States would have had to have sailed with two life belts for each person on board —one according to the- Board of Trade requirements and one according to the United States requirements. That appeared to be absolutely the only solution of the difficulty. Well. Sir, we made representations to the Board and the Board made representations to the United States. Goodness knows what the passengers would have done with these two life belts on board and which they would have taken if we had kept both. I do not know what would have been the result, but finally we came to a conclusion. The United States agreed with this country that a ship which was conforming to the standard of this country with regard to life-saving appliances should be admitted into the United States, and in the same way the luitecl States ships complying according to the standards of their country, should be admitted into our ports, and it has worked so since; and it is not only with regard to life-saving appliances we have these understandings. We have these understandings with regard to all the nations whose vessels come here for passengers. For instance, the German ships, if the Board of Trade is satisfied that the standard in force on ih. German pasesnger ships is substantially the same as our standard, there is no survey. We admit German ships-we admit French ships —we have admitted French ships. We admit the vessels of the United States. There is a kind of reciprocity in dealing with these standards. Now. Sir, these are the particular points dealing with passenger lines, but when you come to the rriers whose services we venture to think are of the very greatest importance to the world, the matter is equally if not more important. You have a, vessel which is despatched from this country, a vessel which has been brought up to our standard. 'The owner knows the particular employment he has secured for that vessel the first voyage, but he knows no more. The crew may be signed on for two or three years, and that vessel starts from this country meaning to accept employment in any part of the world wherever it offers. Now it is of the utmost importance that that vessel should be free to trade provided it has observed all necessary precautions with regard to the securing of the safety of life and property at sea, and that that vessel should be employed in trade wherever employment offers. We cannot see our way to despatch a vessel on that kind of voyage, if it has to comply with varying standards and it is that kind of employ nt which, to my mind, has cheapened carriage by sea more than anything else; it is the getting over the difficulty of vessels in ballast. If you are ready to take employment wherever it offers, and your ship is ecpiipped for that employment, you do not lose on voyages in ballast, and so have to recoup yourself out of the -os that you are looking for. Sir JOSEPH WARD: We meet all that under our Act, Mr. NORMAN HILL: Substantially. Sir JOSEPH WARD : Actually. Mr. NORMAN HILL: I am not quite sure that it -0.-s so far as that at all points. Sir JOSEPH WARD : It says this on page 79, elans.- 197: —"The Governor in Council may from time "to lime make rules (in this Act called 'rules for life-■-saving appliances') with respect to all or any of the ■following matters, namely:—(a) The arranging of "British ships into classes, having regard to the services