I.—Ha.

17. You reckon that in order to make quite sure of this, £30,000 should be provided? Yes. 18. And you still adhere to that, with the alterations made in the Bill?—It is a matter of policy. 19. I am asking you from an actuarial point of view?—l mean that it is immaterial from an actuarial point of view whether it is paid down or in three years' time; but from a practical point of view it simply resolves itself, to my mind, into a question of whether Parliament is more willing to vote £30,000 now and a comparatively small increase if necessary in three years' time, or £20,000 now and a very big increase if necessary in three years' time. That is the whole point. Bnyco2o.8nyco20. How do the contributions and the benefits under this scheme compare with, say, the Railways or the Teachers?—l have a table mmy report showing them all. I may explain' that the contributions I put in the Bill last May were the contributions in the Bill of last year. For ages 30 and under, the contributions under the Police, Teachers, and Civil Service schemes are —5 per cent., all the same ; and Railways 3 per cent. Ages 31 to 35 : Teachers and Public Service 6 per cent.; Police, 6£ per cent.; Railways, 4 per cent. Ages, 36 to 40 : Teachers and Public Service, 7 per cent.; Police, 6J per cent.; Railways, 5 per cent. Ages 41 to 45 : Teachers and Public Service, 8 per cent.; Police, 8 per cent.; and Railways, 6 per cent. Ages 46 to 50 ; Teachers and Public Service, 9 per cent.; Police, 8 per cent.; Railways, 7 per cent. Over 50: All 10 per cent. 21. The contributions there for the Teachers and the Public Service are the same?—Yes. 22. And are the benefits the same?—No. 23. Which has the advantage ?—The Public Service. They are the same with regard to future entrants, but with respect to the present staff the teachers only get half allowance for back service —120ths instead of 60ths. The public servants get the 60ths in full. 24. Is that the only disadvantage the teachers are under?—l do not know of any other. In my report there is a schedule which compares these funds. It is a comparison of benefits under the various schemes. It was not part of the original report, but was supplied to the Premier subsequently. On referring to that I can see how the Teachers' scheme compares. There are differences, but I do not see any material difference. 25. Then, with regard to the benefits under the Police and Railways schemes ?—The benefits in the case of the Railways are the same as in this Bill. 26. Though the contributions are very much smaller?—Yes. 27. And the Police ?—The Police benefits are not so good. Instead of a maximum pension of two-thirds of the salary they only get a maximum pension of three-fifths. 28. The contributions are less?—On the average they are slightly less. 29. Who will come under the benefits of this scheme ? You know, of course, that we already have three other Departments, under superannuation schemes. This covers, I suppose pretty well the whole of the remainder of the service ?—Yes. 30. Are there any branches of the service excepted that you know of ?—No. My instructions were to include everything but Railways' and Police, and such officers of the Education Department as were included in the Teachers scheme. 31. Are there any of the Education Department not included in their scheme which you have not included in this ?—Not that lam aware of. What was done was to send out a circular from the Colonial Secretary's Office to all the Departments, instructing them to supply the data with respect to the men employed therein. The Education Department understood that only those who were not under the present Act were to be included. I have here the whole of the original data as to who will come in. My original report commences with a very full summary of the numbers and salaries for males and females from every Department. It is all there. I have classified them as fully as could be desired. 32. Do you know of any public servants who are not included in either of these Bills, last year's or this?—No. Well, of course, this applies to Civil servants and temporary clerks of'over five years' service. 33. It will not affect temporary clerks with less than five years' service ?—They are not included, but under the Bill, when they have been five years n the service, they are. 33a. Are there any others not included ?—There are no classes that are not included. I noticed the other day—l have not had time to inquire into it—that one individual is not included. That is the Inspector-General of Schools. Ido not know why. lam not responsible for the correctness of the lists supplied to me. The schedules I have taken as they were supplied by each Department, and Mr. Hogben does not appear to have been included. Of course, the omission of one man does not make any serious difference in working out the figures. 34. How about the Permanent Force provided for under the Defence Act—permanent servants of the Crown?—l looked into that this morning, but lam not able to say. I have heje the Defence schedules. If you will refer to them you will see who are included. 35. Will you tell us who are included?—Yes. The minute here says that there were to be included all clerks, storekeepers, receivers of public revenue. 36. I want to get at the officers and men of the Permanent Force?—The officers are included, ut I do not think any of the men are. 37. Take Captain Gardiner: Is he there ?—Yes. 37a. Are any of the non-commissioned officers there?—The instructors are, and the sergeants are. 38. Is Sergeant-major Parker included ?—I do not see his name. They should all be there This list is signed by Colonel Webb, Secretary of the Council of Defence. He is responsible for the correctness of it. The point is this :if Sergeant-major Parker has a right to be included he will be included eventually. The fact of his being left off this list will not interfere with it. It will interfere with my results to an infinitesimal extent.

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