£k-^5.

30

Cg.--MACMUBBA-Y.

remaining in in the evenings, and so forth. Having had a taste of liberty in the daytime, - they think they ought to have just as much liberty in the evenings as European boys. ..-.165, You have not compared the grammar school with Te Aute from a scholastic point of view? —I maintain it is infinitely better for these boys, both morally and in every other way, to send them to Te Aute instead of to a school like the Auckland Grammar School. . 166, Mr. Eliott.] You think it is better for the boys to be educated and go back to their own kaingas in the hopes of elevating their own people, instead of remaining amongst the pakehas? —I do. 167. Do you not think an educated boy more likely to devote himself to <*n easy life than to the. uplifting of the race?— There is that danger, but my experience is that the presence of these boys is a wholesome influence in the pas. Mr. Pope very distinctly states that to be the case. 1.68. I see that the Commission of last year, in reporting generally, said, "In conclusion, we think it expedient to express an opinion that in all eases where the foundation of the trust has been a Maori donation the church or other authorities should make provision for the representation of Maoris on the governing body." Do you agree with that?— Well, there is a practical difficulty about that, and I will tell you what it is. Take St. Stephen's School, and I suppose it would be the same with regard to Te Aute, if this school was not managed by an attorney. It is necessary for the trustees to meet once a fortnight to transact business. If you put a Maori on the trust and he is to be of any use whatever he must attend regularly, otherwise he gets out of the run of business. Now, Ido not know where you will get many with the education and opportunity to attend these metings once a fortnight. It is a practical difficulty. 169. The Chairman.] Supposing the trustees wish the school to be conducted on certain lines in regard to education and the Education Department think differently, who is to decide between them? —Well, remember the position of the Education Department in regard to these trusts is this: the only authority it has over these trusts is in so far as the schools receive boys holding scholarships. It is a moral authority. If we do not hold to the opinion of the Education Department the whole thing they can do is to say, "Well, we shall send you no more scholars." It is simply a matter of good feeling. My experience is that we really never had any difficulty with them. We have always understood each other and worked together harmoniously. 170. The position is, you endeavour to work in with them, but you claim to be the paramount authority in the school ? —Yes. 171. Mr. Bird.] Did the trustees introduce industrial training into St. Stephen's on their own initiative?—lf you discriminate between industrial training and technical training, industrial training we have had in St. Stephen's for all time —that is to say, we have always trained them in habits of industry; but the origin of the modern technical instruction is this: About ten years ago, speaking roughly, Mr. Morton, my co-trustee, and myself called upon Mr. Seddon and asked him if the Government would help as if we introduced techuical workshops into St. Stephen's. Mr. Seddon said at once he would. He told us that under the Treaty of Waitangi there was £7,000 a year due to the Maori people, and that out of that £7,000 he would grant to us whatever money we needed for this purpose. He said he was in full sympathy with us, and on the strength of that promise of Mr. Seddon's we set to work and we had a workshop built, and 'employed an instructor, and got the thing into operation. 172. Did you receive any assistance of any kind from the Government? —Yes; they contributed to us the material out of which the workshop was built, and they contributed to us a grant in aid of the instructor. But the terms have been modified since, lam sorry to say, and very disastrously, I think, in the interests of technical education, 173. They also gave you a grant to purchase tools? —Yes. 174. And monetary assistance towards the erection of the shop?-—They provided money to buy the material. . . ■ ■:-. 175. And monetary assistance to pay the technical instructor?— Yes. -176. And also for a man to superintend the erection of the shop?— The man who superintended the erection of the shop was the technical instructor —that is to say, we made the building of the workshop a part of the teaching and training of the boys. 177. Have the parents of any boys, to your knowledge, ever objected to their boys engaging in manual occupations?— Yes, they have. 178. Do you know of your own knowledge that that is the feeling amongst Maoris generally at the present day? —No, it is not the general feeling; but not very long ago, when a Maori chief of considerable standing came to the school and found his boy doing the ordinary industrial work of the school, he was very irate to think his boy should be employed at such work. I think the boy was digging in the garden. The boys cultivate the garden and grow vegetables, and that sort of thing. 179. Now, with regard to the system of apprenticeship, are you sure that the apparent intention of the Department is that these Maoris shall learn trades for the purpose of pursuing their occupation afterwards amongst Pakehas? —It is hard for me to say what is in their mind. I can only interpret their intentions by their actions. I know that the Department is exceedingly anxious and keen that we should give facilities for these boys to learn trades. 180. Are they such trades as can be pursued afterwards only in cities and towns and pakeha settlements ?—The trades of saddlery and coach-making, which are the two trades many of these boys go to, are trades which are practically town trades. - - 181. In regard to the boys who have been drafted to other high schools, like the Auckland Grammar School, the failure that has come to your knowledge has been a failure in discipline only?—lt has been a failure in its results, and I think the failure generally arose through the reason I have already stated. : - 182. But- with regard to the higher education and after-career of these boys, was there any failure there? —Yes. I do not know one of those who went to the Grammar School that I could