27

a.—s.

S. WILLIAMS

110. Mr. Eliott.] In order to assist us in looking up old deeds you referred yesterday to Mr. Cooper: was that Mr. G. S. Cooper, who lived at Waipukurau?—Yes; he was a member of the Land Purchase Department, and was also in the Colonial Secretary's Office. 111. Then, Mr. Cooper got the signatures to the deed of cession of the Native land?—-Yes. 112. To the Crown or to yourself?—To the Crown. I directed it should be conveyed to the Crown, with a view to its being Crown-granted to the Bishop of New Zealand. 113. In the previous Commission of 1878 you stated in evidence, " Any possible benefit derived by the cattle has been compensated for by meat supplied to the establishment, and by depasturage for sheep belonging to the establishment in dry seasons upon another run not belonging to the trust." It would appear that meat was supplied to the school from the run in those days. Is anything supplied to the school from the estate now ?—Milk is supplied free, and meat is supplied at a moderate rate. 114. You told us yesterday about a reclamation : was it your own land that was reclaimed, or part of the trust estate? —That was private property. A little bit was on •he estate. 115. But, owing to the drainage, the lands of the estate lying into the swamp would be improved ?—Yes, it improved some parts, but not to any great extent. The work was done by a River Board, which is still in existence. About 5,000 acres of land are rated, but there are only five ratepayers. 116. You hold other leases direct from the Natives?— Yes. I took up the land in the first instance with a view to raising funds for church purposes. Then Bishop Abraham and the trustees became rather anxious at the large amount of money required for improvements and for the run,, and so on, and they tried to give it up. I said, "If you give it up I shall lose a large sum of money, and I shall carry it on myself," which I did. 117. Seeing that the Natives are largely interested in this trust, would it, in your opinion, be desirable to alter the trust and give the Natives representation on it?—lf you get a suitable man I should say there should be no difficulty at all. 118. Do you think it would be an advantage to have the Natives represented?—l do not think so. 119. In this first report of Mr. Russell's [Exhibit No, 23], it is said there is a sum, in all, of £1,035 lis. 6|d. due by the school estate to you? —Yes. 120. Has that all been repaid by the trust? —-Yes. 121. And at present there is no debt at all?— No. 122. Can you give us some idea of how much of your private money has been expended on the trust estate ?—Several thousands. 123. Would it be £10,000 ?—lt is highly probable. 124. The Chairman.] The Inspector of Native Schools has asked me to ask you whether the parents of the boys now at school or the parents nowadays object to manual and technical education ?—Not so far as we give it now. 125. Do you say they would object if the classical branch of the education was detrimentally affected by the teaching of technical and manual education? —I certainly think they would. 126. They want the boys given a classical education?—No, not a classical education. But they would not like to see the ordinary education interfered with; and they do feel a pride in seeing their sons take a higher position. They would not like to risk it. I may say there are vague ideas nowadays as to what technical instruction is. 127. Mr. Eliott.] Is any trace kept of the girls after leaving Hukarere ?—Yes; they are always followed up by the teachers, who take a lively interest in them. It is just the same with the boys. 128. They know perfectly well where they are, and what they are doing?— Yes; they are constantly communicating with them. James Beckett Fielder further examined. 129. The Chairman.] With regard to the minute-book of the trustees you produced yesterday, do you now produce a copy of that minute-book? —Yes [Exhibit No. 25]. 130. Have you been able to find any other minute-book?—I have not; but I am going to communicate with the diocesan secretary in Wellington asking him if he will look up the old records, and forward me all papers in reference to Te Aute. I communicated previously both with Auckland and Wellington in reference to the old records of the diocese. 131. You have no other records in Napier?— No. 132. You have made searching inquiries in Napier, and can find no other document belonging to this trust?— No. 133. We have been asked to get the total receipts - and disbursements for each year since the creation of the trust: how far can you help us in that direction?— The accounts from 1855 to 1868 were presented to the Royal Commission of 1869, and were published in the proceedings of that Commission in Appendix to Journals of House of Representatives, 1898, H.-21a, being a reprint of A.-sa, 1869. I now produce the accounts of the trust from 1869 to 1905 [Exhibit No. 26]. I may state to the Commission that the accounts for the Hukarere School are only included from the time that school was incorporated. George Mac Murray examined. 134. The Chairman.] You are canon of the Auckland Diocese?— Yes. 135. Y"ou are at present visiting Napier ?—Yes. 136. You have not come here in connection with this Commission ?—Not at all. ..' .... 137. Were you present at the sixteenth - General Synod of the Church of the Province of New. Zealand, held at Auckland in January and February, 1904?.—Yes. "..-