T. H. GILL.]

3

1.—14.

25. Mr. J. Allen.] And there would be interest ?—Yes. i 26. Right Hon. R. J. Seddon.] Perhaps you have explained to the Committee how the scheme before us compares with what the teachers' conference considered would be satisfactory ?—Only in one respect, and that was in regard to the fixing of a maximum annuity. We asked that the maximum should not be more than £120 for back service. 27. Will you now give to the Committee, in detail, the differences between the proposals submitted by the Government, and what those who represented the teachers on the conference thought would be a satisfactory scheme ? —I speak subject to correction ; but i think that with that one exception the proposals were the same. 28. I want you to take the Bill and show the disadvantages and the advantages, as compared with what the conference asked ?—I think that with one exception the Bill is exactly on the same lines as the resolutions that were passed. It is advantageous, rather than the reverse. 29. The Chairman.'] The Premier wants you to point out the disadvantages and the advantages ? —I have not got with me the resolutions that we arrived at. lam not prepared at the present time to take the points one by one. 30. Right Hon. R. J. Seddon.] Take the minimum : is there not an advantage there to the teachers, under the Bill ? —Most decidedly. The Chairman.] If we take Mr. Jeffrey, in the meantime Mr. Gill can go through his papers and continue his evidence after Mr. Jeffrey has finished. 31. Right Hon. R. J. Seddon.] I do not know whether you have made any calculation, Mr. Gill, as to what the effect will be if the retiring-ages for women are made sixty and fifty-five, as proposed in the Bill. Have you any idea at all what that would mean ?—What the extra cost would be 1 32. Yes ?— No, I have not. [Since giving his evidence Mr. Gill has sent to the Committee this statement: — The following summary is a reply to a question put by the Right Hon. Mr. Seddon to myself at a meeting of the Education Committee, on Friday, 28th July, re benefits of the Teachers' Superannuation Bill. The rate of contributions in the Bill is the same as that agreed upon at the Conference held 21st to 23rd June, viz. :— 20 to 30 years .. .. 5 per cent. 40 to 45 years .. .. 8 per cent. 30 „35 „ .. .. 6 45 „50 „ .. .. 9 35 „40 „ .. .. 7 „ Above 50 years .. .. 10 „ The retiring-age was also the same —viz., men, optional fat sixty years, compulsory at sixty-five years; women, optional at fifty-five years, compulsory at sixty years. The time fixed for the number of years of contribution to the fund was the same —viz., forty years for men and thirty-five years for women. The maximum retiring-allowance was the same —viz., forty-sixtieths of the average salary. In case of retirement before fifteen years the Bill allows for the return of all contributions to men and women alike, but at the Conference a distinction was made —women were to receive all their contributions, while men were to receive the surrender value of contributions. In the case of retirement after fifteen years if medically unfit, the benefits are identical —viz., one-sixtieth for each year 'of contribution. A distinction was made between new entrants and original members, both men and women, who were dismissed, as in the case of original members there was a recognition of back service in giving an amount not exceeding one-twelfth of the total salary received during all years of service prior to the Superannuation Act. This distinction is embodied in the Bill. It is in the case of teachers who are now at or approaching the retiring-age that the benefits in the Bill and those recommended at the Conference are different. The Bill says, " One-sixtieth part of the total salary paid during all the years of his contribution to the fund: Provided that the annual allowance payable to an original member shall in no case be less than the sum of fifty-two pounds." The recommendation of the Conference was, " That the annual allowance payable to an original member should be one-sixtieth of the total salary received during all the years of service: Provided that the proportion of the annual allowance, based on service prior to the commencement of the Act, should not exceed £120 in the case of men, and £72 in the case of women : Provided further that no service prior to the commencement of ' The Education Act, 1877,' should be counted as service under the Superannuation Act." Prom a comparison of the benefits above it will be seen that both provide for sixtieths, but while the Bill fixes a minimum allowance of £52 the recommendation of the Conference allowed for back service to the extent of £120 as a maximum for men, and £72 as a maximum for women, and at the same time suggested no minimum retiring-allowance. In case of death the widow or representative receives similar benefits in the Bill and in the recommendation of the Conference.] 33. Were the ages for women's retirement that are specified in the Bill —fifty-five and sixty— before the conference and approved by the conference ? —Yes, that is so. Those were the ages approved by the conference. 34. As representing the institute, are you surprised at the indignation and protests that are now being made at the fixing of the ages at sixty and fifty-five I —At the women's action, you mean 1 35. Yes ?—No ; I cannot say that I am, because I judged from the meeting that was held in the Clyde Quay School here that the women in Wellington were anxious that fifty should be made the retiring-age. From the expressions of opinion at that meeting lam not surprised at some of the women teachers in this city asking that the retiring-age should be reduced to fifty. What was done in other places I could not say ; but if the same kind of feeling has been shown in other parts, then I presume