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22. Mr. J. Allen.] Why was that? How did they pay it—out of " Unauthorised "?—Out of the Treasury Cashier's imprest, and it was to the charge to the Loan Act of that payment by the imprestee that the Audit Office objected. 23. What authority had they to pay it? There was no Governor's "Warrant then, was there? —No. The Treasury claimed the authority of the Act to pay the rate of interest on the debenture for a period after the maturity of the debenture. 24. But you were objecting to it at that time? —Yes. 25. They paid, notwithstanding your objection, and without the Governor's Warrant?— They had paid before I saw the papers. 26. Was the payment, in your opinion, made without authority either by the Governor or anybody else?—lt was, in my opinion, a charge not authorised by the Loan Act under which the debentures were issued. 27. And the Governor's Warrant had not authorised it at that time?— That is so. Then there was a payment to the trustees of the Rhodes Estate of £5 9s. 7d, which was approved on the 10th April by the Treasury. That amount was paid on the 6th April, according to my notes. 28. It was paid before it was approved by the Treasury then?— The Treasury would approve of it after the Treasury Cashier paid it, I presume. This is my note, " Approved on 10th April; paid on 6th April." 29. But how can these payments be made without your authority? —An imprestee's payments are audited afterwards. They come up for audit after payment. 30. Hon. Sir J. G. Ward.] In any case, I assume, the Treasury must pay interest upon debentures to those to whom it is payable when the interest coupon is presented?—-Yes, but there was no coupon in this case. The Audit Office was objecting to the payment of interest for which there was no coupon—interest for a period subsequent to the maturity of and not provided for by the debentures. 31. It is quite clear, I think, that where interest is payable by the Treasury to the holders of the colony's stock, such payment does not wait for audit in any case —they must pay on presentation ?—The ordinary course of the Treasury is to provide for the interest by requisition before the payments become due; but if no such provision is made they pay out of imprest here, or if the payment has to be made in London and the High Commissioner is not provided with the money by requisition, he pays by Commissioner's order under the Public Revenues Act. 32. So that in any case he pays the money before authority is given?—He pays it before he receives other authority to pay it than such authority under the Public Revenues Act. He has the general authority of the Public Revenues Act to draw, by Commissioner's order, for what money is necessary for the payment of the charges on the public debt. , 33. In other words, it is beyond question that the interest must be paid by the Treasury on presentation of the authority to get the interest by the person holding that authority?— Yes, interest in accordance with the debentures. , 34. Well, if the Treasury, by authority under Act, make a payment out of imprest that is considered by you to be irregular, it is a case of post-audit and not pre-audit with you?— Yes, I come in then to audit after the payment has been made. 35. In any case, you do not claim that you should audit before payment is made? —That is a matter for the consideration of the Treasury. 36. I put it to you as a matter for the consideration of the Auditor-General: do you claim that before interest is paid to the holder of a coupon you should audit that before the interest is paid by the Treasury, who give the authority without reference to the Audit Office in the first instance?—No; the Treasury are frequently applying for advances of money for the purpose of paying interest, and if they have any advances they can apply those advances to the payment of interest authorised and provided for by securities under a Loan Act. 37. I take it that what you mean is that the Treasury may requisition for, say, £100,000 in globo for the payment of interest, but upon presentation of a coupon for £50 by the holder, the Treasury may pay that person the £50 without waiting for the Audit Department to audit the payment ?—Yes. 38. And that is the course that was followed in this particular case?—-I think so. 39. The authority of the Audit Department must come in after the payment of the interest is made to the individual; it cannot come in before? —That is so in such case; but this is a quesof authority for the charge. 40. That is another point. Is it not a fact that as a matter of procedure —which probably could not be otherwise—the Treasury in the first place must pay the interest to the person who is entitled to it, and that your supervision over that authority comes in after the payment is made? —It does not follow that it must be so. The Treasury may provide for the payment of interest by requisition, or may obtain an advance for the purpose of paying interest. I think those two courses are open to the Treasury. The coupon is simply a voucher for a Treasury payment, just as any other voucher is a voucher for a Treasury payment. 41. You do not lay it down as the duty of the Controller and Auditor-General that you should pre-audit payments of interest made by the Treasury ?—I do not think I can. 42. So that the authority for the payment of interest in the first instance rests with the Colonial Treasurer, or some other Minister acting for him?— The authority for the payment of interest ? 43. Yes; the authority of the Crown—in other words, it must rest with the responsible Minister in the first instance ?—The authority for the payment of interest is the Loan Act. 44. Yes, but he is acting under the authority of Parliament in some form or other? —If the Colonial Treasurer uses money which is applicable to the payment of interest authorised by the Loan Act for payment of interest which is not authorised by the Loan Act, the Audit Office, when the voucher comes up for the payment of that interest, questions the charge. If it is a charge