9

I.—9a

143. How long would it take an ordinary person of twenty years of age to become fairly expert in your business? —It is very difficult to make up an estimate of that sort. It depends upon ability and tastefulness. Some would never be expert. There is a good deal of adaptability in our trade. As a matter of fact Ido not like to take them in at all. Sometimes we are asked to take them on as a favour, but we do not like it. Formerly we could do many of these things until the Factory Act was passed. I used to have many people, old and young, asking me to take them on, and when we were not tied by the Act we would do so. They could do something at piecework and make 10s. or 15s. a week, but now we must go by the rule. There is the Act and there is the award, and we cannot go outside of them, and we cannot do any kindhearted act. 144. Therefore the Factory Act prevents a kind-hearted employer doing this kindness? —Certainly. 145. What effect has it had on the hard-hearted employer? —In the case of sweating it is all right; it compels him to-pay a minimum wage. 146. The law after all is only for the evil-doer? —Yes; that is the reason why I think Mr. Taylor must have had something in his mind when moving this amendment. I feel that he is going to cure the evil by inflicting a greater one. 147. What we are all wanting to do is to secure some consideration for those who cannot help themselves, and at the same time avoid any friction between employer and employed. Can you suggest any way by which an employee of twenty years and over can be protected against receiving an unscrupulous wage, or any way by which we can fix a minimum wage? —If a worker has served four or five years in our trade she is earning 17s. a week, at any rate. Mrs. Penlington suggested that we should have certificates showing the date at which girls of fourteen or fifteen started their apprenticeship, and if they leave one shop to go to another the date should be given, so that the next employer would take her up where she left off. That would be a check to enable the Factory Inspector to see that the wages were being properly paid. The clothing-manufac-turers also have that under consideration in their proposals to the Arbitration Court to sit next month. That would fix the amount which the worker was worth at the end of her apprenticeship. Unless circumstances arise by which there is a scarcity of labour, I do not see why the worker should not get that wage. The Arbitration Court fixes the wage, but it provides also for an " incompetent " clause, under which the wage is fixed by the Conciliation Board or Arbitration Board. This provides for the workers who, although they have served their time at the trade, are unable to earn the full wage. I can quite well see the labour members' view, that the low wages cut against those who have served their apprenticeship, but the amendment is too high; it simply prevents these young people coming in. 148. Should we fix any minimum wage after twenty years of age? We have fixed it up to twenty? —It is one of those things that I fail to see how you can legislate on without causing a hardship to some one else Where an award gives a period of apprenticeship of so-many years they could start them on the second year, unless they show their ability. But there would be a difficulty about that. 149. Mr. Ell (to Mr. Cathie).] How many hands have you taken on during the last twelve months over twenty years of age, and who have never been previously at the trade? —I do not think I have taken any. I have tried to guard against that for some years. Ever since the Act fixed the wage at ss. a week with three-shilling rises, and there was some difficulty as to whether when they were beginning at seventeen years of age they were to start at Bs., I refused to take them on if practically they were over fifteen years of age. 150. Then, the passing of this Act would not affect your business? —Not a bit. 151. (To Mrs. Penlington). How many hands have you taken on during the last twelve months who had not previously been at the trade? —I could hardly say. They come and go. Perhaps a dozen or two dozen. 152. At about what age have they come to you after having been previously at the trade, and at what age have you started them? —When they come to me I ask what wages they have been getting. I ask first where they have been working, and by their answer I know fairly well what class of work they have been used to. If they tell me they received 12s. I ask them what they left for, when perhaps they tell me their employer was slack. I say, " Well, if you like to come and start for me I will give you 12s. a week, and if you are worth more you will get it." I start them generally at what they left off at at their previous employer's. But my experience has been that when they say they had been receiving 12s. I find that they had only been getting Bs. 153. You think that a certificate would be of benefit? —Yes. I have known dozens of girls who have found that the trade did not suit them go up country after a while, and when asked how long they had been at the trade say two or three years. 154. On the other hand, if a girl has served three years and holds a certificate she would be able to start at 17s.? —Sometimes a girl is useless to an employer after working two years at the trade. 155. (To Mr. Jones). How many hands have you taken on during the last twelve months over twenty years of age? —I do not think there have been more than four. 156. So that if the Bill were passed it would not seriously affect your business? —No. We do not take them on now more than we can help. 157. (To Mr. Houghton). How many hands have you taken on over twenty years of age during the last twelve months? —I have not asked them their age. Ido not think we have taken on any over twenty years of age. 158. So that the passing of the Bill would not seriously affect you? —It might, in this way: that we should not employ any over that age. The younger we can get them the better. 2—l. 9a.