G.—7

8

Mrs. Brown: Yes. The Commissioner : Will you please hand them in ? Mrs. Brown handed in the names of eighteen persons, sixteen of whom were dead. (See List No. 6, Appendix E, (1).) The Commissioner: I notice that page 2 of this exhibit gives the descendants of the Ngatimutunga entitled to succeed the dead persons shown in sheet No. 1. Page 3is the list of children whose names appear in page 2. Mrs. Brown stated that Makareta was a child of Kahe, who is dead, and is entitled to be succeeded by the Pomare family. The Commissioner : These lists will be further gone into. Mrs. Hopere handed in a list of claimants—twenty-one in all—and stated that she appeared for these, but had no claim on the land herself. (See List No. 7, Appendix C, (1).) The Commissioner : I have read the names over so that all the Maoris present can hear them, and by-and-by we can go more particularly into the matter, so that if any Maoris have any objections against these persons' claims whose names appear on the list they can make them then. I see that some of these persons are dead: how can you represent dead people ? Mrs. Hopere : These people were living at the time the land was given back to the Maoris, but they were not living at Waitara at that time— i.e., 1867. The Commissioner : I shall want to know where these people were living, and where each one was living. The Commissioner then took down the present residences of the Natives whose names appear on the list. The Commissioner: Now then, Mrs. Hopere, what do you wish done in this matter ? Mrs. Hopere : What I wish to say to the Commission is this : that these people come under the heading of absentees. They were clearly absentees, and that is why I handed in the list. I have wished them to have the land in accordance with the promise made by the Government in 1867 ; at that time this land was set aside for those Natives of the Ngatimutunga who were non-resident in Taranaki. The Commissioner: Do you wish so much of the land to be given to each person, or how do you wish to have the land dealt with ? Mrs. Hopere : We wish ail these people whose names are mentioned to come into the block, and all to be treated in the same way and get equal shares. What I wish is that the people of that hapu who have been resident here and who have received awards of land should be excluded. The Commissioner : Is there anything further you wish to say ? Mrs. Hopere : What I wish the Commissioner to do is this : to give the land back, and to give it in equal shares to such persons whom it is found come under the heading of absentees. I will not go further now, but I will conclude, leaving it for any person who likes to make objections to the lists which I have handed in, to do so. The Commissioner : That is quite sufficient; that is all I want at present. I shall have to go more fully into the matter, but at present I only want to find out who you represent. Te Tipi Hone Wirihana came forward. The Commissioner : What is your name ? Witness: Te Tipi Hone Wirihana, and I live at Mimi. The Commissioner : Whom do you appear for, yourself or others ? Te Tipi : I can write out a list of those whom I appear for. The Commissioner : Please to do so. Mr. Martin : I belong to Nelson. I repeat what I said this morning that I wish to know what is the position of this land. Heni te Rau has said that the land is to be given back, but I want to know how it was given back, whether it was for the Ngatimutunga who were living here or for other Ngatimutunga. Mrs. Brown has said two things about the giving-back of the land by the Government, and also that the Natives had possession of it. Mrs. Hopere has said that the land was given back for the absentees. But what I say is this : that it would have been better to have allowed them to understand one another and see which is right, Mrs. Brown or Mrs. Hopere. The Commissioner: That question, of course, Mr. Martin, will be settled by-and-by. lam simply getting the chief points and the heads. lam now only taking preliminary steps. Mr. Martin : If it is for the Ngatimutunga who are absent alone I do not care to speak about that; but if it is to go into the whole genealogy, and their relationship the one to the other, then I shall take part. The Commissioner : There is one question raised by Mrs. Hopere. She said that these persons who had already received awards of the Compensation Court should not be allowed to participate in this. Well, I may say at once, to remove any doubt about that part of the business, that any persons who are proved to have had awards made them by the Compensation Court may bring their cases forward if they like, but they will not be recommended by me to the Governor. The object really of this Commission is to enable any Ngatimutungas who did not participate in any benefits conferred by the decision of any previous Courts or Commissions to bring in their claims for their share in the 3,000 acres. Hone Tuhata : Would descendants of people who were entitled in 1867 be allowed to participate in this ? The Commissioner: Certainly. I was not alluding to these. It is quite evident that we are willing to find out who are the descendants of dead people, because we went into that in Mrs. Brown's list; but what I wish to impress on you is that those who have received awards in the Compensation Court will not be allowed any portion of this 3,000 acres. This land was simply set aside by the Government towards the claims of absentees. Mrs. Brown : I wish to state that I agreed with what you have said. If I were to bring in all the Ngatimutunga there would be fifty more claimants, but then they have received awards. Te Tipi puts in list. (See List 8, Appendix C, (1).)