Or.—s.

R. HOPERE.J

47

22. Have not the various liapus met together and appointed some person to appear for them, so as to shorten the proceedings '? —No, we have not, because we were taken by surprise as to the coming of the Commission. 23. If you had time could you arrange matters in that way ?—Yes, I think so. 24. Are we to understand that a hundred is the total number of children handy to Pepepe and Hopuhopu % —-Yes ; there would be a body of about one hundred day-scholars. But if a school were built and a place for them to board, there would be a great many more than that. I should think there would be over three hundred. Ido not believe there are more than ten Waikato children attending St. Stephen's School. I should like to see a school on the land somewhat similar to Mr. Ashwell's old school, on the same lines, where the masters would be in residence and clergymen to teach religion. The land was given for that kind of school, but in consequence of the war the thing was broken up, and the pupils were scattered. 25. Would you not like a more effective school than those old schools ? —Of course that would be ver] 7 much better if we could have it. 26. I mean more effective in the way of mechanical and industrial education ?—That is what the Maoris would like now. 27. The Have you considered at all what the commencing cost of establishing such a school as you speak of would be, and what would be the necessary annual expenditure for its maintenance % —I have thought of that, and, no doubt, a large sum of money would be required. 28. How much do you think it would cost to begin with ?—That is a question too difficult for me to answer. 29. How much would the annual expenditure be, do you think, for providing teaching, &c. ? — I could not tell you. 30. If there is one such school established will not the other Natives interested in the several grants think there should be a school of the same kind on their places ? —Yes, that might be so. 31. Mr. WardelL] Do you think enough money would come out of the land for such a school ?— Perhaps so, if it were leased ; if you include all the back rents. 82. Do the Natives own any land round the boundaries of the Hopuhopu Block ?—Some are Europeans and some are Maoris. 33. Has the Maori land been leased or dealt with in any way ?—No, they are living on it. 34. Do they make use of it and cultivate it ?—Yes, they cultivate it; not that adjoining Hopuhopu, but a little way off. 35. Are those lands in the same state in regard to overgrowth of scrub and woods as Hopuhopu ? — Hopuhopu is alone in that respect —in regard to being covered with briar ; the land this isde of Hopuhopu is the same, but not the lands below, which are clear. 36. Is that due to difference in soil ? —I think it is, because the people at that end are lazy. The part of Hopuhopu which is improved is that occupied by the Native clergyman and a small piece leased to a European. Pepepe is entirely overgrown.

Ngaruawahia, Tuesday, 27th June, 1905. Nikoro Tautau, Clerk in Priest's Orders, examined. Witness (to the Chairman) : In former days these lands were given by the Maoris to the Church of England for education purposes. At one time there were schools upon them, and a resident clergyman ; and the reason why this ceased to exist was owing to the action of the Government, that is, the war which brought trouble, and owing to the war the school was removed to St. Stephen's, in Auckland, and the Church decided to lease these lands and to use the rents derived therefrom in support of the Auckland institution. But when they leased the lands they did not derive a very large revenue from them. Kohanga was leased to Mr. Muir, and owing to this, trouble began between the Board and the tenant. The trouble arose in this way: There were four subdivisions of the land ; two parts were lands given by Maoris to the Church, one was given for a burial-ground, and the fourth was given for a fishing-station for the Maoris, and also for a burial-ground that was called Tikirahi. There were two burial-sites. When they leased the lands the lessee got three portions, and when the Natives wanted to have a school put there the 5 acres meant for a burial-ground was surveyed off for the school. At that time I was at Kohanga, and the Maoris told me they objected strongly to that arrangement; that they did not wish a school put on that sacred plot of ground. I spoke to the trustees, and we had a long discussion. I asked the Bishop to send some one to visit the spot and discuss the matter with the Maoris. When he who was sent by the Bishop returned, the trustees sent me a report on the matter. I sent it to the Natives at Kohanga to Tupaea Euihana. The report was to this effect: that the Trust Board had agreed that the 5 acres was not to be diverted from the purpose of a burial-ground, but that they could not put a school on the other portion of the land because it was leased to Muir ; but that if the Maoris could select a piece for the school-site the Board would send the money to purchase a site outside the block ; and that they were not to be anxious about Tikirahi —the fishing-station—if that was included in the lease, it could not be helped. Our talk about the land ceased at this point. In regard to Hopuhopu, I corroborate what Roka Hopere said. Hopuhopu is surrounded by European residents, and it would be a good thing if there were a school at it. But there would be a drawback in the fact that very few children are near ;it would be difficult to get together thirty children. I approve of a separate school for Maoris, because it depends a good deal on the teacher. Some teachers take an interest in Maori children and some do not. I had a little child whom I sent to school for two years, and I was told the child was neverjjjtaught, and she knew nothing at all ; and in the case of the Hukanui School the Natives took away their children owing to one of their girls being beaten by a