H. A. GORDON.]

7

I.—4a.

134. What would happen in the case of a coal-mine owner who was not a wealthy man, but who had insured his employees, if a big disaster occurred and he was unable to meet any demand other than the insurance demand ?—lt would ruin him entirely. 135. But what would happen to the men if he had no money to pay them ?—They could not get it. 136. This fund, if set up, would be a means out of which they could be paid ? —Yes ; but I think the employers ought to be relieved from paying into that fund altogether. 137. You think it should be repealed?— Yes. 138. Hon. Mr. McGowan.] With regard to the Miners' Accident Relief Fund, if the definition of "miner" was altered as proposed in the Bill and all the others wbo are not now brought in under the definition were included, what effect would that have on the present Relief Fund ?—I think that any one employed in a mine at the present time gets relief from that fund if necessary. 139. No, for all are not miners ?—lf it were only the actual miners it would make a great deal of difference. 140. They would require to make a higher contribution in order to maintain the present assistance that they get ?—Yes. 141. If you increase the number of men who come under the definition of " miner " you must necessarily either reduce the amount payable to those who receive assistance, or you must increase the amount of the fund by a higher charge?— Yes. 142. Mr. J. Allen.] There would be more claims on the fund?— Yes. 143. The Chairman.] You know the mines on the West Coast ? —Yes. 144. What distance has a miner to walk in the Westport Coal Company's Denniston mine till he gets to the face ?—Some of the men take twenty minutes. 145. Do you not think it is as hard on the miner to get to the face when he has to carry his tools and go over rough ground as it is to work?— The men only walk themselves. A man has to walk a long distance, in some eases, when working on the surface. 146. Have you heard any expression of opinion from the miners that they wish to get the bank-to-bank clause?—l have heard that they want it; they would want to get only six hours a day if you would give it to them. 147. If the words " or hereafter " were struck out, as provided for in Mr. McKenzie's Bill, and the eight hours from bank to bank introduced, would not the Arbitration Court have power at the present day to fix the rate of wages for miners at a lower figure ? Would not the Court have power to fix the hewing-rate, and the rate of wages for truckers, and everything connected with a mine, at a lower rate ? —There would have to be something brought very clearly against the men to get the Arbitration Court to lower the wages. 148. Are you aware that the miners have stated before the Committee that they would be willing to submit to a lower rate of wages if the Arbitration Court decided against them ? —All such matters should be left to the Arbitration Court, for the simple reason that some mines are worse to work in than others. I refer to the wages, and everything in connection with the hours of labour. It would give greater satisfaction, I can tell you, to the employers, and I believe to a majority of the miners, if everything was decided by the Court. 149. Are you aware that the miners are anxious for Parliament to fix the time at eight hours per day, leaving it to the Arbitration Court to fix any reduced hours in bad mines, as you say ; and if the Arbitration Court thinks it is likely to raise the price of coal, or to do a serious injury to the mine-owners, the men are willing to leave it to the Court to fix the rate of pay, possibly at a lower figure ? Therefore, if they fix the rate of pay at a lower wage your company would not lose the 7 per cent, that you mentioned ?—lt is this : some miners might come here and say they would take lower wages, but my experience of miners has been that they would want higher wages and less hours. 150. But they say they are willing to leave it to the Arbitration Court. What I want to impress on you is that the miners want us to fix eight hours from bank to bank by statute, leaving it to the Court to fix the rate of pay and the shorter hours for bad workings. Are you aware of that ? —There is one thing that I want to say to the Committee as far as the price of coal is concerned: it is only to a certain limit that we can go, because we have Newcastle coal to compete with, and Newcastle coal can be admitted into the colony without paying duty or anything, and we have to produce coal against it. 151. Mr. R. McKenzie.] Would you mind looking at that mortality table, compiled by Mr. Barrowman, on page 77. I suppose you cast your eye over vital statistics now and again. Did you ever see a mortality table anywhere else compiled like this one ? —I could not answer that question right off. 152. Can you really say what this table expresses ?—As far as mining is concerned I believe that it is an average occupation. 153. Is it not a fact that the way the table is compiled and printed is sufficient to show that whoever compiled it knew nothing about the subject ?—I would not say that. 154. If this Committee asked you to compile a table of mortality that any one could understand, would you express it like this ? —I do not know. If the compiler got this from statistics I think it expresses the mortality rates pretty well. It is a question of collecting statistics. I could not say without going into the matter. 155. Would you not express a percentage per thousand?— You could do it in that way, but he has preferred another way. 156. You say that the price of coal would have to be increased by the eight hours from bank to bank ? —There is no doubt about it. 157. Are you aware tbat the price of coal has gone up in the last ten years?— Yes; but so have wages. 158. What has been the increase in the price of coal in New Zealand in the last ten years?— I could not tell you exactly. I know it has increased. 159. Do you know whether it has increased materially—say 50 per cent. ?—No, not that. 160. Twenty-five per cent. ?—I cannot say the percentage. 161. Do you know what the price of coal in Westport is now, which regulates the price of coal for the colony, I take it ? Suppose it has gone up from 10s. a ton on board ship at Westport