E.—l4

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136. Is it not a fact the same thing occurs in Wellington ? Take the Clyde Quay, Te Aro, and Newtown Schools ?—The headmaster of Clyde Quay has aDI certificate; the other two have Bl certificates. 137. I think we may take it for granted that a large majority—-75 per cent., I think—of the largest schools of the colony are officered by men whose certificates would be penalised by the scale ?—I could not tell you at the present moment; we worked it out just lately; the total number of deductions is not large. 138. As far as Auckland is concerned, is it not a fact that the schools are officered by Dl men ?—I could not say straight out; Bichmond Boad is not, Nelson Street is not. I think the others are Dl. 139. Do you not think that our system of certificates is an unnecessarily complicated one ? — I think it would be possible to do all the work that a system of certificates should do with a very much simpler system. 140. Then, you answer the question in the affirmative ?—Yes. There would be great difficulty in changing any system of certificates ; you would need to work the old into the new. 141. I cannot help noting this : you admit, in answer to my question, that in your opinion the system is not sound, yet at the same time you founded your scale partly upon it?—l think that is hardly a fair statement of what I intended to convey. I did not say that the system was not sound ; theoretically, I think it is very good, with one exception. I said I think it is an unnecessarily complicated one. The only point of unsoundness about it is that it attaches too much weight, in my opinion, to the literary qualification. 142. With regard to the syllabus, you said, in dealing with this question in your main statement, that in the future you would have something after the English and Scotch code: in the event of that taking place in the small schools, do you think there would be the same necessity to begin with an assistant at 35?— There is also this qualification: it does not matter by what process you are teaching, or what is the method of the teacher, it is the dealing with the child's mind that takes time and limits the number of children that can be taught effectively. It is not altogether the number of subjects ; it is the number of mental movements —the brain movements —each child has to go through. 143. What you practically mean is this: that there is the standpoint of judging by examination results or by what psychological results may follow ? —I think we have overdone the idea of judging our education by examination results. 144. Mr. Weston.] You would not dispense with examinations ?—No; of course, we cannot dispense with them, but we must make them more rational. 145. Mr. Steivart.] Is it not a fact that what the teacher wants to do is to guide the child by moral and educational influence, and let the natural activities of the child be developed simply by doing something of itself ?—That is one side of the question. 146. Mr. Luke.] I had a letter of complaint from the Auckland teachers complaining of the jumping from one scale to another: I take it that in the scale we have before us, showing the increase by capitation the objection is removed? —Yes ; for a school between 15 and 19 the fixed salary is £75, with £2 capitation for every one over 14 ; so that for a school of 17, for instance, the salary would be £90, or £75 plus £15 ; for a school of 19 the salary would be £75 plus £25 = £100. 147. Mr. Weston.] There is a capitation allowance from one number to another?— Yes; the scale is continuous. 148. Mr. Luke.] We have 113 schools in Auckland with no teachers' residences attached; to my knowledge for the last twenty-three years they have been petitioning the Government to build these residences : I should like to know your opinion about it ?—The building vote is supposed to cover the cost of building residences as well as schools. I think it is a question for the Board to settle. 149. In regard to the pupil-teachers, I think the scale is rather low—first year, £20 plus £10; second year, £30 plus £10, &c.—it seems to me hardly enough for male pupil-teachers ?—lt is higher than the average now paid. You must remember that they are practically apprentices learning their trade.

Wednesday, 24th April, 1901. Mr. Hogben's examination continued. 150. Mr. Luke.] I have one other question I would like to ask Mr. Hogben, and that is what effect will this colonial scale of staff and salaries have on the Education Boards ? Will they be deprived of their privileges, say, from an administrative point of view ? —No. I think I am quite safe in saying that I know of no intention on the part of the Minister, and certainly there is no intention on the part of the department, to interfere in any way with the functions of the Education Boards, except —I will say this—perhaps in regard to the question of centralisation of the inspectorate. Other than that, I keep nothing back whatever. 151. Mr. Stewart.] I understand that Mr. Luke wants to know if, in your opinion, the work of the colonial scale, automatically as such, will tend to interfere with the functions of the Boards, their prestige and administrative powers ?■—l say Ido not think so. In framing this suggestion I have endeavoured to avoid any possibility of doing so, unless, of course, it were considered the function of the Boards to say what salaries they should pay their teachers. Ido not consider that that is interference with the administrative powers of the Board. I might say, Mr. Chairman, I have statements here, based on the London School Board's report, ending Lady Day, 1900. 152. That is exactly thirteen months ago?— Yes. [Figures and statistics quoted by Mr. Hogben from the report to be handed to the Commission, showing relatively the various details in