39

E.—3b

said he had stew for dinner, and bread and water for tea and breakfast, and sometimes tea to drink. I noted that, because the other boys said he had bread and water only. I did not make any observation regarding this boy myself, and I moved away. Shortly after that we left the institution. I would mention, in referring to the hill from which the boys bring the wood, that I know it very well. I was brought up at Stoke, and have been over there scores of times, shooting, playing, &o. The hill is steep and of considerable height, 1,500 ft. at least. I cannot find it out exactly from the measurements of the Survey Department. The highest point of the hill is 2,500 ft. I should think 1,500 ft. is within the mark, and the Survey Office thinks so too. 1. Mr. Hogben.] 1,500 ft. above the sea, or above the school?— Perhaps to be safe I had better say, above the sea. From the sea to where they land the wood is about 300 ft. This would leave the rise at about 1,200 ft. I have been up twice in one day, and felt very tired indeed. 2. Mr. Wardell.] How long ago is that ?—About twelve or fifteen years ago, when I was well able to go up. In my opinion, if boys are sent up there four times a day, it is too much, and they can only do it under fear of punishment. Ido not find any fault with going up once or twice, but more than that is too much altogether. I think there is no harm in their going up once or twice to bring wood down. 3. Mr. Fell] When you were in the playground with Mr. Heyward had you an opportunity of seeing and speaking with the boys ? Were you followed out by a Brother ?—There was nothing to hinder us having conversation with the boys. 4. Did they make any complaint to you about the treatment?— No. They just crowded round in an eager way, laughing at each other; but they did not say anything. 5. Mr. Wardell (question suggested by Mr. Bout).] Were you a strong, robust youth, and were you looked upon as a famous hill-climber ?—I was a strong boy, and I was able to run about hills well. 6. Mr. Hogben.] Can you say whether in the course of your conversation with Brother Augustine, or any other Brother, speaking about confinement in the cells or other punishment, was any reference made to a code of punishment?—No reference whatever was made to any code of punishment, except that it was their practice to put the boys in these cells as long as they had been away. That was their practice. I did not understand that they were referring to any rule of the Education Department. I understood it to be a rule of their own management. 7. Did they refer to any rule of their own in respect to other punishments ?—No. 8. Did they refer to the regulations proclaimed for Government industrial schools ?—No. I do not think the members of the Board then present were aware of those regulations then. They became aware of them shortly afterwards. 9. Did the Brother refer to any conditions, instructions, or understanding with the Department in reference to punishments ? —No ; nothing was said in my hearing regarding the Education Department. 10. Mr. Bush.] Eegarding this downstairs cell, you are quite certain there was no ordinary window like that [pointing to a window of the room] ?—I am quite certain there was no window in the ordinary sense. There was a small opening about 2 ft. by 1 ft. If there was a window, it was boarded up in some fashion. 11. Mr. Fell.] Did you try whether the window would open?— No. 12. Mr. Bush.] When we were looking at that cell I understood that it was in the same position as when you saw it. It is a 3 ft. 6 in. window, partly raised, with bars in front ?—I should naturally expect a window in a room like that; but at that time it did not show as a window to us. Chaeles Haggitt, examined on oath. 13. Mr. Harley.] You are a contractor in Nelson?— Yes. 14. Have you been up the high hill behind the Stoke Orphanage often ?—Yes, several times; roughly speaking, six or seven. 15. Is it a steep climb and hard work ?—lt is. 16. Mr. Wardell.] It is a stiff, tiring climb :is that what you mean ?—lt is a stiff climb. 17. Mr. Harley.] What effect do you suppose it would have if boys went up there four times a day ? —I doubt whether they could do it. 18. You mean it would be too much for them?— Yes. 19. And, I suppose, to drag a log down would not make it more easy?— More hard. 20. Mr. Fell] Do you know how many schoolboys go up the Dun Mountain on holidays for their own amusement, or how high it is ?—I do not know. 21. Mr. Wardell.] Or how many times a day they go?— No. Geokge Hogben, examined on oath. 22. Mr. Harley.] What are you?— Secretary for Education and Inspector-General of Schools. 23. You know St. Mary's School ?—Quite well. 24. You paid a surprise visit there about a month ago ?—Yes ; on the 25th June. 25. Did you examine the building?— Yes, thoroughly. 26. Did you see any cells, or places evidently made or prepared for keeping boys in? I saw four constructed for that purpose, and one place where a cell obviously existed before. 27. Mr. Wardell.] You saw four which you consider built for the purpose ?—Yes, obviously. 28. Mr. Harley.] Did you see one under the tower ?—I saw where it had been. It had been pulled down. That was the fifth. 29. Did you ask the management or any one when it had been pulled down ?—Yes; it was pulled down after the visit of the members of the Charitable Aid Board, who had made a report to the Minister of Education,