29

B.—3b

66. But you attempted to make a surprise visit ?—Yes ; in the time Mr. Everett was Chairman of the Board some years ago. 67. I suppose that was not a surprise visit, or an attempted surprise visit ?—Yes, it was. 68. How long ago?—ln 1890. It must be more than two and a half years ago. I cannot tell you the date. 69. You have not been there since, except on the last occasion?—No; I did not care to go because I could not see things in their natural condition. 70. Mr. Wardell.] When did you find out , that you did not see them in their natural condition ?—I found this out because directly we got up there we found everything prepared for us. 71. Mr. Fell.] You all went up in a body when everything was prepared?— Yes. 72. Why did you not go by yourself ? —I should want a witness. 73. Why did you not get a witness ?—I could not command any one to go. 74. Did you ever try to get any one to go ?—No. 75. How do you know you could not make a surprise visit if you never tried ? You went apparently on state occasions. Why did you not go privately, or with a friend ?—We did, I say, and succeeded in May last. 76. You had never been before with the exception of these state occasions. Why did you not go by yourself ?—Because I could not get in by myself. 77. Did you ever try ? —I did not think of going by myself. 78. Did you not tell Brother Loetus and others that the institution was first-rate, and that it reflected the greatest credit on them, but that the solitary confinement was the greatest blot on the institution ? —No, I did not. I said the confinement was very harsh. 79. Why did you not complain of the food ?■ —Because I did not know whether that was continued from day to day as I know now. 80. Did you ask the Brothers or the boys ?—No. 81. Did any of the boys complain to you of the food ? —No. 82. Did you ask them whether they had any other clothes than those they had on ?—No. I knew they had others. 83. That was over two and a half years ago ?—Yes. I had also seen the boys in the band, and in processions. 84. Did any boys complain to you of insufficient clothing ? —They never spoke to me. 85. Did you give the Managers to understand that you considered the confinement of the boys ought to be stopped generally ?—Yes ; the Chairman asked that the boys be let out. I forgot to say that Brother Augustine, referring some time before to the cells, said, " I always said they would get into trouble over this. I always disapproved of it." 86. Did they say why they adopted this as a form of punishment ?—I think Brother Loetus said the Department would not let them flog on the back, so they shut the boys up, and it was the same at Burnham. 87. Did you complain of anything else, or suggest any other improvement or alteration ? —No. 88. Mr. Hogben.] I should like to be quite clear as to what Brother Loetus said. Was it in referring to the cell he said that the boys were punished in the same way as at Burnham ?—Yes. 89. Was that question confined to a recent or to a lengthened period ? Was it a question of being confined in cells at all, or over a lengthened period ?— I should judge, a lengthened period. 90. Will you repeat the same words as he said ? —He said, on being questioned, that they were only carrying on the same punishment as was adopted at Burnham. 91. Was the question of the time of the confinement in cells part of the same conversation?— Yes. 92. With regard to the statement as to flogging, will you repeat again what he said?—He said they did not flog, because the Department had forbidden them to flog. 93. Then, you understood from him that they had ceased to flog, under instructions from the Department ?—Yes. 94. You understood the remark to apply to that alone? —Yes, I think. I.am aware now that flogging is contrary to the regulations of the industrial schools. 95. You understood Brother Loetus to say definitely that they had been instructed by the Department not to flog?— Yes; definitely. 96. You understood Brother Loetus to say the practice at Burnham was to act in accordance with these instructions ?—Yes. 97. Mr. Wardell.] What was your impression as to the physical condition of the boys?— Well, not so good as it ought to be. 98. Did you see any appearance or evidence of emaciation or results of starvation ?—I did not see any emaciation. They had a pallor about the countenance. 99. Did you hear of any illness amongst them?—We have had several of the boys at the hospital at different times. There is one there now. 100. Is that the one who was here yesterday ? —No; another one. 101. Mr. Bush.] When walking between the tables and the dining-room were any Brothers present ?—Yes; two were standing in the room in a kind of pulpit. 102. When outside amongst the boys were any Brothers present ?—I saw one close. I think Brother Augustine was coming towards us. 103. They were so near they could have heard anything that passed between you and the boys? —Yes. The whole time we were there the Brothers could hear exactly what passed. 104. Did you ever make Irish stew ?—I have eaten a great deal of it at times. 105. I want to find out whether you have ever made it, because you have spoken of it 3 poverty in this case. Can you tell how it is made ? Are there equal quantities of meat and vegetables ?—No; not equal quantities. There should be a lot of meat, and some onions.