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at the time. Kemp agreed, and the next morning No. 12 was taken into Court and awarded to Ihaia Taueki without objection. If any witnesses have said that the Ohau land was dealt with at any other meeting than that referred to by me it is untrue. I did not hear of any subsequent meeting of the people at which the Ohau section was given to Kemp for himself. There could not have been, in my opinion. If Kemp was present and I was absent it would not be a meeting. If there had been such a meeting I must have heard about it, and would have attended. I heard part of Eu Eeweti's evidence. I heard him say that he was present at a meeting in Palmerson's barn when Kemp came in and asked Muaupoko to give him No. 14 for himself, &c. All I can say is, Who heard of that meeting ? I was not present at it, nor have I heard of it since. The first I heard of it was at this Court. I know of no discussion about No. 14 other than that I have said took place at the first meeting. The Muaupoko were at the Palmerston Court, "Te nui o Muaupoko." I think there were about one hundred and forty names in the original certificate for Horowhenua. I remember Ihaka te Eangihouhia of Ngatipariri. He was in the certificate of 1873. He died before 1886. I was appointed his successor. There never has been any arrangement between Kemp and myself as chiefs that he should have No. 14 for himself. We, the Muaupoko, have always considered that Kemp held No. 14 as an alternative section for the descendants of Whatanui. Kemp was to hold it and No. 9 until they had finally decided which they would have. The boundary of No. 9 was not allowed to go to Hokio Stream because it was thought that the boundary being kept away from the stream the descendants of Whatanui would choose No. 14. I never heard that No. 14 was given to Kemp for his share of the block. Mr. Stevens here put a question to the witness with reference to the ancestral rights to Ohau. Sir W. Buller objected, and stated that he had not put a single question to any of his witnesses as to Kemp's ancestral rights. Mr. Baldwin contended that, as Kemp and other witnesses called by Sir Walter Buller had referred to Kemp's ancestral rights, it was competent for Mr. Stevens to put the question. Mr. Stevens said if Sir Walter Buller would say that he abandoned any claim by ancestry ; he would not press the question. Sir W. Buller said he would not abandon anything, but he had not mentioned ancestral rights in his opening, and for the purpose of this case he did not rely on ancestry. The Court said the question before it was whether or not Kemp held No. 14 in trust, and it did not seem necessary to go into the question of ancestry at present. Witness (to Mr. Stevens) : I think Lewis and McDonald spoke of the agreement between Kemp and McLean at Mangakahia's Court. I don't think the agreement had arrived then, but I believe that McDonald asked that the Ohau section should stand over until the terms of the agreement were known. The Ohau section was shown on McDonald's tracing, which he showed to the Court. I have heard it stated here and before the Eoyal Commission that No. 14 was Kemp's absolutely. I have never agreed to Kemp having No. 14 for himself. I deny his right to have it for himself. He was wrong in stating before the Commission that No. 14 was his own. No. 14 belongs to Ngatipariri. The people who have a right to it are the descendants of Pariri. The fights over it were between Ngatiraukawa and Ngatipariri. Kemp's ancestors took no part in those fights. Examined by Mr. McDonald. Witness: The three parcels were spoken of before Mangakahia's Court. The Ohau section was postponed as the result of a conversation between you and Mr. Lewis—at least, I believe so. [Vol. 7, page 185 : " Mr. Lewis, on his former oath, said, " &c. " Order made in favour of Keepa te Eangihiwinui," &c] I have no doubt that the minute of the Court is correct. I thought the order was deferred until the agreement arrived. I must have forgotten. It took place a great many years ago, and I cannot dispute the minutes of the Court. I think Mangakahia only sat on one day. I remember the first day that Kahui sat. The orders made by the first Court were gone over by Kahui's Court. It may have been then that the Ohau section was postponed. I remember the Court of 1890 at Palmerston. I remember Kemp giving evidence there. [Vol. 13, page 177 :" I still hold this for a special purpose."] I remember Kemp saying, "No. 14 is for the descendants of Te Whatanui; it is not for me alone." I remember Kemp saying that. I heard him saying it. I did not object to what he said. I understood that he was holding the land for the descendants of Whatanui pursuant to the agreement. At that time he held the two parcels to hand over to the descendants of Whatanui, whichever of them they might choose. The descendants of Whatanui had not made any selection at that time. Up to 1890 I had no knowledge that Kemp claimed No. 14 for himself. I think it was in 1894 that I heard the matter was settled, because I saw Kemp, Taipua, Te Aohau, and Eu Eeweti in the streets in Wellington, and Hoani Taipua told me they were going to Lewis's office to have the Eaumatangi section conveyed to the descendants of Whatanui. I did not make any application to Kemp after that about No. 14, because we were quarrelling about No. 11, and he would not have listened to me. I have said that the Ohau section was dealt with on the first day of Kahui's Court. Orders were then made for the parcels that had been before Mangakahia's Court. I did not hear the Ohau section referred to after that in the Court of 1886. The Eaumatangi section was also cut off for the descendants of Whatanui, because Te Aohau had objected to the Ohau section in Mangakahia's Court. Hare Pomare and Heni Kipa had also, I heard, spoken to Kemp outside the Court. All Muaupoko heard the objections to the Ohau section. They were the subject of general conversation. Kemp and myself spoke to Muaupoko as to the advisableness of cutting off another block of land at Hokio, so that the descendants of Whatanui could have their choice. It was decided that the boundary should not touch the Hokio Stream, as Muaupoko strongly objected to it. Both sections were to be in Kemp's name. There was much discussion about it among Muaupoko. The women took part in it. The whole discussion was after Mangakahia's Court, and before Kahui's Court. I think Kahui's Court lasted three days. I remember what took place on the last day. I think No. 12 was ordered on that day.