G.—2

20

Lewis was called to give evidence about a township. I have some recollection of the Judge saying something after Lewis had given evidence about the township. [Vol. 7, page 185: "We do not wish the man," &c] Ido not remember that I had heard, then, that the land was sold to the Government. Ido not remember what Mr. Lewis said in his evidence about the township. [Read to witness : pages 184 and 185.] I knew that the object in applying for an order for the 4,000 acres was to enable it to be sold. The benefit we derived from the sale is, that the Europeans have settled among us. It was first stated that we were to get quarter'acre sections, but I placed no faith in the statement. We never got the sections. I know that Mr. Lewis spoke about the 1,200 acres for the descendants of Whatanui at that Court. The land he referred to is what is now No. 9, at Raumatangi. The first proposal was to give the 1,200 acres at Ohau, but that finally settled by Lewis was at Raumatangi. The proposal to give the 1,200 acres at Ohau was in Mangakahia's Court. [Vol. 7, page 185, Lewis's evidence read: "During the time Sir Donald McLean," &c] I have only now heard that an order was made for the 1,200 acres. It was not interpreted to us at the time, I remember Nicholson objecting to the position of the 1,200 acres as then proposed. He is a half-caste, and understood what took place. As it says in the minutes that an order was made for the 1,200 acres, I will not dispute it. I have already said I did not hear the order made. I remember the first Court adjourning, and a further adjournment taking place owing to there being no Assessor. Our deliberations extended over six or seven days. There were three divisions before the Court on the 25th November, 1886. We, the Maoris, did not know them by numbers. I remember an order for 11,130 acres being asked in Kahui's Court. Don't know numbers. It was awarded to us. W 7 hen it was surveyed I heard it was No. 3. To Court: I saw Mr. McDonald in Court on Ist December and other days. He was the conductor, but I only now know what he did. He did not tell us at the time. To Mr. McDonald : I did not know until we were informed by the Court that the Assessor was gone. [Horowhenua Commission, page 89, questions 188 to 190 read.] I remember giving that evidence. The land was intended to be at Ohau at first; it was afterwards extended west of railway. [Horowhenua Commission, questions 191 and 192 read.] I referred to the objection made by Nicholson in Court. [Horowhenua Commission, question 195 read.] I don't remember giving that evidence. I never said that it was said about the town, and not in a building. I ask the Court to believe what I say. [Horowhenua Commission, questions 196 to 205 read.] Silence is sometimes a sign of consent among Maoris. [Horowhenua Commission, question 206 read.] That was settled on the 25th November, 1886. [Horowhenua Commission, questions 207, 208, 209, read.] I reaffirm most of my evidence as read, but I deny having said anything about the eel pas, or about Papaitonga. I admit the rest is correct. I mean that I did not say that the eel pas at Hokio and Papaitonga were offered to Whatanui's descendants. [Horowhenua Commission, page 98, questions 2to 6 read.] I remember those questions and my replies. The replies are correct. [Horowhenua Commission, page 99, question 56 read.] I remember that question being put to me. My reply is correctly reported. I knew at the time that No. 14 was identical with Papaitonga. [Horowhenua Commission, page 98, questions 26 to 28 read.] Those questions and replies are correctly reported. [Horowhenua Commission, page 91, questions 257 to 260 read.] That is true. I did not hear that the mortgage had been passed by the Native Land Court. I cannot speak for other Muaupoko. Sir W. Buller told us that the mortgage was to secure £500 paid to Edwards only. That is all I heard. [Horowhenua Commission, page 270, questions 81 to 96 read.] I again say you must ask the whole of Muaupoko. lam only one of them. Assemble the tribe, and ask them as a tribe. [Horowhenua Commission, page 93, questions 335 and 336 read.] It was Hare Pomare's elder brother that Kemp met in Auckland. It was Hare Pomare who went to Palmerston in 1886. The Pomares are the direct descendants of Whatanui. I heard Kemp say that he had seen Pomare the elder in Wellington; but I cannot say that it was when the Court was sitting that Kemp saw him. I can't say whether Kemp should have waited for Pomare the elder to accept or reject the 1,200 acres. Ask him ;he will be giving evidence here shortly. [Vol. 7, page 193, re No. 11.] The No. 14 that was before Mangakahia's Court was said to be entirely to the eastward of the railway. [" Application by Major Kemp," &c] I do not know what is there meant by the balance of the land between the railway and the sea. I suppose it means No. 11. I don't know why Kemp and Hunia extended No. 14 westward to Papaitonga. I believe the tribe agreed to Kemp having Waiwiri, in the same way as they assented to the township section and others. I cannot name the individuals who assented. I do not admit that the extension of No. 14 to Waiwiri was not agreed to in 1886. I told the Court this morning that No. 14, the 1,200 acres at Ohau, was given to Kemp for descendants of Whatanui. It was at that time confined to the east side of the railway, and the descendants of Whatanui refused to accept it. It was afterwards given to Kemp by the tribe —the same piece. Mr. McDonald informs witness the days Court sat in November and December, 1886, and what the Court did. Witness : I admit that what you tell me is correct. Kahui's Court sat on the Ist, 2nd, and 3rd December. I kept no count of the days. I heard Kemp apply to Mangakahia's Court to make an order to him for the 1,200 acres at Ohau for Ngatiraukawa, but I do not know whether the order was made. The tribe afterwards gave the same piece of land to Kemp for himself. I understood that Kemp informed the Court (Kahui's Court) that as Ngatiraukawa had refused the 1,200 acres at Ohau he was to have it himself. I did not hear him say this, but I knew that the tribe arranged outside the Court that Kemp was to have it for himself. I heard an application made in Kahui's Court for an order in Kemp's favour for this 1,200 acres, but it was not stated that it was for Kemp alone. That was settled outside after the matter was withdrawn temporarily. I cannot remember what took place on the different days the Court sat —at least, not everything. Colonel McDonnell: No questions.