1.—13

16

the consequence was that we had to take him before the Magistrate in Dunedin; and our experience was such with him that we resolved that for the future all the boys should be taken on good behaviour. Of course, we are bound to keep them in employment; but the obligation was just the same on one party as the other. Suppose a lad is removed from one part of the colony to the other, how would the case stand? 36. Subject to indentures, the agreement would be cancelled ; the parents would have to make some arrangement. But supposing there was no agreement?— Our experience is that we have had no difficulty with our apprentices. They know, of course, they can leave —and some have left when they thought they could do better, and put us about for the time being. As many have left that way as we have been compelled to put away ; and, so far as our experience goes, we find we get on better without them being indentured. I have such a strong opinion on the subject that I would not have a law of indenture at all. The Chairman : Of course the objection to that is that a number of the boys are not trained tradesmen at all, and are a nuisance to themselves and others; and we wish to do away with that, and have a reasonable arrangement. Witness : I think that these half-trained tradesmen who are turned out in that way are as much to blame as the masters. The Chairman : I quite understand that. Witness : There are some lads who, as you know, cannot take in anything, or are not adapted for a particular business, and it is really only a waste of time their following an occupation of that sort. I fully approve of the three months' probation that the Act allows before binding a boy, because you can see in that time whether a lad has any adaptation for the trade he is put to. 37. The Chairman.] Then, you object to indentures altogether ?—I object to them altogether from my own experience. 38. Mr. Millar.] In the event of this schedule being passed as printed in the Bill, regarding employers, will they insist on having a premium before taking apprentices ? —I think so. I think no master will take an apprentice unless he sees some advantage for himself for the trouble he is put to in educating the boy. I think the scale drawn up here, and which is to be paid to boys, is entirely in their favour. In fact, Ido not know who drew up the Bill, but it seems to be entirely in the boys' favour. 39. The Ghairman7\ Ido not know how the information was got, but I suppose it was from information supplied to the Minister. Do you consider it is fair to draw out a schedule for the Bill?—I think so. Yes, I think an apprentice in the fourth and last years 'of his [time should receive such a wage as would enable him to live by his trade. 40. You refer to the second-last and last years?— Yes. We give our boys 15s. If a boy is living with his parents it might find him in clothes and food, and he will get £1 in the last year. 41. Mr. Millar.] It is about 30 per cent, on the wage you say you are giving your journeymen— 15s. and £2 10s. —on the amount in the fourth year?—lt is one-third ; but you know a master, in teaching a lad a trade, stands almost in the position of a schoolmaster in teaching them to read and write ; you cannot expect a master to lose his time in. educating lads to gain their living if he is not gaining any advantage from it. You must allow him a certain inducement to cause him to take apprentices. Ido not believe in getting boys in to turn them adrift after a year or two unless you have some reason for it. If the lad behaves himself, I think he is entitled to justice from his employer as much as the employer is for taking the lad. 42. Generally speaking, you give 40 per cent, the last year? —That is something like the proportion we give; and my experience in Wellington, with boys who have been trained with us, is that I prefer them to the generality of men I can pick up. 43. The Chairman.] You teach them a trade, and you prefer them?— Yes, for workmen. 44. Mr. Millar.] Under the proposed schedule it would mean about 80 per cent, increase on the rate you are paying during the last year ?—Yes; suppose you take the fifth year at 60-per cent. The fifth year we give about 40 per cent. 45. On the average wage you told us ? —Of course, I have told you the average wage a man receives. There are two foremen who get a little more, but, taking them all round, they get about £2 10s. 46. The Chairman.] Have you anything further to say ? —No. 47. Mr. Millar.] Mr. Scoullar says he believes in the number of boys being regulated.—Of course; but while saying that I think you ought to allow a fair margin; say, you allow a boy to every two or three men in every shop. 48. The Chairman.] That is a reasonable limit. What would be a fair limit in your own trade —a growing trade in the ordinary way —how many boys would that mean ? —I think you should allow about three apprentices to six journeymen. You see, in a colony like this, where the people are settling, they require furniture and household effects, so that there are very many chances for young men who wish to settle down in the country in business.

Tuesday, 18th Septembee, 1894. David Patrick Fishes examined. D. P. Fisher : I am a printer, and President of the Typographical Association. 1. The Chairman.] You have come to give evidence in connection with the Master and Apprentice Bill. You have, I suppose, made yourself acquainted with its provisions. Will- you kindly state your opinion of it—whether you approve of it generally, or in part, and would you direct our attention to parts you disapprove of, and suggest in what manner you think it could be improved ?—I will introduce the subject by referring to the Sweating Commission, of which I was a