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135. Then, to a certain extent, the Adelaide institution is a combined institution ?—To a certain extent. 136. And you consider that it is impossible to give good oral teaching in a combined institution ? —Yes, I "consider that perfectly impossible. 137. Therefore, supposing, for instance, you had a separate house for the children to be taught on the sral system, and they mixed with those taught on the manual system in the playground and in their drill exercises, and that they were accustomed on those occasions and at religious services to attend to signs or the manual alphabet, you think that would be destructive of the effect of oral teaching ?—I believe it would. 138. Did you see, practically, in Adelaide that such an effect was produced by the mixture of the two systems ? Did you yourself consider from what you saw that that effect was produced?—I did not see that institution in full working order. 139. Admiral Sir E. SotJieby.\ Is the institution confined to the English population, or is there anything done for the Natives who are deaf and dumb ?—We have only at present come across one case of deafness amongst the Maoris, a child in the extreme north of the Island, a son of a Maori chief in the Thames district, and the father did not like the idea of the child leaving him ; he could not be induced to allow the child to come to the institution. 140. The Native children go to the elementary schools ?—Yes. They have separate Maori schools for their ordinary education. 141. .What part of New Zealand is Sunnier in? —It is about eight miles from Christchurch. Christchurch is in the Canterbury District. 142. Is it a matter of any difficulty for children to come from Wellington, Auckland, the Thames, and that part of New Zealand? —They come by boat. 143. But I suppose the children come more from the neighbourhood than from the north part ? —No. I have the statistics here giving the number of children each year from the different districts. In 1883 we had—from Auckland, 7; from Hawke's Bay, 1; from the Wellington District, 2; from the Otago District, 10 ; and from the Canterbury District we had 10. 144. Nelson ? —We had none from the Nelson District. The next year —from Auckland, 7 ; Taranaki, 1; Hawke's Bay, 1; Wellington, 1; Canterbury, 10; and Otago, 11. 145. Have you visited any deaf and dumb institutions in England since you have been here ? —I visited the institution in Eitzroy Square, and the Doncaster Institution, and the institution in Henderson Eow, Edinburgh; and one public institution in Glasgow, and also a small private institution in Glasgow. 146. If it is a fair question, how do you consider your institution stands in comparison with those you have visited ?—I could not compare many institutions I have visited in England with ours, as'in most of them, more or less, the combined system is used. I consider our institution compares very favourably with the one in Eitzroy Square, and also with Miss Griffith's private school in Glasgow. 147. Mr. Van Oven.] The latter are a better class of children, I suppose?—Yes. 148. Admiral Sir E. SotJieby.] You said there is no religious education at all in the Sumner Institution ?—There is no religious education at all. 149. You have spoken about that, have you not, or Mr. Van Asch has spoken about it ?—I have never spoken about it officially. 150. Would there be any objection, according to the feeling of the colony, to introduce any religious education ?—For myself, I do not think there would be. >;: 151. But I suppose it is the wish out there that no religious education should be introduced in any school? —Yes. 152. The pupils may seek it where they can? —Yes. 153. Do you know if any of these children go to any place of worship?—The assistant-master in charge takes them to church occasionally—the Church of England. The girls go in charge of a lady. 154. And where do you place them in the church?—They generally sit near the middle of the church with me. 155. And are they able to understand what the minister says?—No; the children could not possibly understand, from the lips of a man they had never seen before, a sermon straight off; their knowledge of the English language alone would not allow them to understand it. 156. Those are the children, I presume, who have been only a short time with you, but you have some children that have been eight years with you ?—At the time I left we had four children who had been eight years with us. 157. Would those children understand what is said by the minister ?—No, they would not understand what is said from the pulpit. They would understand if one went into the place with the full intention of speaking to them as deaf-mutes; but a total stranger, and at that distance from them, they would not be able to understand. 158. Supposing that children had been educated on the combined system, and went to a church where the preacher preached on the sign-manual system, could they understand then ?—He would only be able to communicate with them in the ordinary language of the deaf —that is, the English language simplified. 159. And would they understand him ?—Yes ; they would understand him. 160. Then are you not in favour of anything like a combined system?—No. 161. Then you would deprive those children entirely of having any satisfaction out of going to church? —Not at all. Those "children are perfectly capable of understanding a sermon just,as well .* I think there would be, at any rate on the part of Soiuan Catholics. The parents of Roman Catholics have asked me personally not to let their children attoud the church, and I carry out choir wishes in this respect to the letter.—G.V.A.