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proper: at present we have to give the simplest possible instruction to students; this should decided]} , be given in the public schools. 177. You have not mentioned workshops? —I would have workshops attached to the school of design. The only plan we can adopt under present circumstances is to utilise the shops that are in existence in the town. We have managed to do this in one case—the engineering classes. We can send students there that they may carry out the practical part of their work. 178. Do I understand you to suggest that your school of design and technical institute should stand apart—that is, be separate from, or that it should form part of, the State schools?—l think it would be better to place these schools directly under the department. The school of design should be central in each district. You might have a local Committee to take the business portion of the work, or supervise generally, but not to interfere with the instruction. It appears to me that the organization and the inspection of the schools should come from the Education Art Department. 179. You must see that would form a radical change in our public-school system, for the Education Act is mandatory that no fees shall be paid, and you have said that they should be paid? —Otherwise I do not see how the institutions could be supported. It would be better, of course, if we could carry on as the French and German schools do, where generally no artisan fees are paid. In every case, I believe, under the continental system the artisan is free after passing certain stages. 180. As this forms a large and very important part of education, do you not think it would be better taught if the necessary instruction were imparted under a separate system?— Principally it would be, under the science department; my suggestion is that a science and art department should be formed for the purpose of controlling it. 181. This would add a costly department to our education system. According to your evidence there is a difficulty in connection with the question of fees : you say you think that fees should be paid. I think with you that fees ought to be paid. But then comes in a conflict with the Education Act. Do you not think it would be better to adopt the New South Wales and Victoria plan, and to have the school of design and technical institute separate ? Take, for example, the Colony of Victoria, with, roundly speaking, a population of a million, having thirty-eight schools of design or technicalogical institutions, as they call them, the amount of aid given by the State being, roughly stated, about £900, the remainder of the cost being provided by the pupils in the form of fees. Now, the question I wish to put to you is, whether you think it the better plan to make your technical institute or school of design form a part of general education, or in the interest of art and technical instruction to have a separate system ? Would it not be so ?—Establishing a science and art department would make it a separate system. 182. But I understand you to say that you would have it separate. I want you to be clear, and tell us Yes or No whether you would have it form a part of our education system, or whether you would have it separate. If you have not thought that out I would wish you to think it ou t? —I would keep it separate decidedly. 183. You are clear on that ?—Yes. ' 184. Mr. Allen.] Would you tell us, when considering the whole subject, whether science should form a part of your proposal ? —I would leave that to the scientist. I prefer to speak of those subjects I am acquainted with. 185. Mr. M. J. S. Mackenzie.] I should like to ask you whether you find any considerable number of children with an inaptitude for drawing?— No. I am aware that some of the teachers of the Board of Education in this district are under the impression that it is necessary to have talent for drawing. To that I say emphatically that such a notion is utterly wrong. There is nothing that should prevent any child, supposing him to be possessed of the ordinary senses, from learning to draw. I have had a very extensive experience in New South Wales, having had the examination of teachers under my direction, and the revision of over 2,500 papers each examination. Ido not think I have found more than three children who were unable to learn to draw; the reason tha.t these three could not draw was in consequence of physical defects. If you commence at the right age there is no child that cannot learn to draw. This point has been raised by one member of the Board, who has said that children who have not the necessary talent should not be compelled to learn, as he thinks it is only fitted for those who will require it for the work they have to do in after life. I have no hesitation in saying that such an opinion is a great mistake. 186. Would you be disposed to hold the same doctrine in regard to music?—l have already said that I would prefer not to speak of subjects with which lam not so well acquainted. I donot see why a child should not be taught music the same as drawing. But I am perfectly certain that drawing can be taught to every child. I can only say again that I could wish the Committee would visit the school and see the actual work done. They could see the children at work. That would be by far the best proof they could have of the efficiency of the system of instruction which I suggest. (For Eeport in continuation vide page 57.)

EDUCATION GENERALLY. (Continued from page 12.) Statement made by Mr. Habens at the request of the Committee. Several questions have been put to me by or through the Chairman of the Committee, some in writing and some by word of mouth, with respect to proposed or possible reductions of the cost of education. The most general of them is as follows: "Is the present system as economical and efficient as it could be made, or could any alteration be made which would not impair the system and yet save money ?" More specific questions are in this form : " Supposing that it is necessary to reduce the cost by £50,000 a year or by £100,000 a year, how could the reduction be effected with least injury to the system?" I have also been asked, what effect upon the system would be