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to the King, and so maintained his dignity in the face of his people, it would have died out long ago. 820. Was it not owing to the capital spent by private people in and around the King country, the chiefs in the King country receiving the money, and the consequent mistrust, that broke up the King party ?—lt was not the Government that broke it up. I think the negotiations affected the question very little. I would not confine the breaking-up of that confederation to the operation of the money spent by the Europeans alone. No doubt it contributed. But I think the Maori found that he got tired ; he longed for luxuries which he could not get, and there, was a desire to return to European intercourse. 821. Mr. Pratt (Parata).] You stated that you believed in the Natives having control to deal with their lands —to sell or do as they liked with them ?—Yes. 822. Do you not think if they got that power they would part with all their lands ? —My answer was, " After sufficient reserves were marked off for themselves to be absolutely inalienable, not only to the Government, but to any person whatever." 823. You spoke of ten being trustees under the Act of 1865 : do you not think it would cause a great deal of difficulty having just ten to have control over the block ?—lf you mean some difficulty, no doubt it would be so if we did not avail ourselves of the knowledge which we obtained under the Act of 1865. I think now it could be prevented by sufficient checks. I refer, of course, to the main difficulty. 824. Did not the Act give power to sell, and look with indifference upon the rest of the owners interested ?—The Act recognized nobody outside the grantees. If people were left out of the grant it was by the arrangements of Maoris themselves ; it was their own doing. They have learned wisdom now, and would not do the same. 825. Supposing there was a block of land of fifty names: do you not think, supposing that land to be subdivided, that the chiefs should get a greater proportion than the rest, according to Native custom ?—I do, decidedly. I have long thought so. I have wished that to be done; but I found that these men maintained sufficient of their old feeling as to forego their mana to a great extent. 826. Do you think it should be carried out now?—l think it should if it could be done. I know I would try hard to do it. 827. Mr. Wi Pere.] "Was this a Maori law—this law of ten in a grant ?—lt was an Act of Parliament. 828. You said it was the Maoris who fixed that there should be ten in a grant ?—I never said so. 829. Then it was the Parliament that fixed that there should be ten in the grant ?—I think you must mean the selection of ten, not merely ten in number. 830. If this Bill passes in its present shape, will trouble come iinon the Maoris ?—I think no trouble will come from the Bill, because, in my opini&n, it will not v.^.k; it will maintain things in statu quo. 831. Then, what force is there in your statement that too much power is given into the hands of the Governor in Council: why did you say so ? —Because I thought so. 832. Do you not think it was because the Government would get the whole administration of the money and everything?— You seem to be going in a circle now. I thought the Government had too much power under the Bill—too much administrative authority—that the whole principle and everything else was in their hands. 833. Do you apprehend that the result will be that the Government will get all the money and land, or that the Government will sell land unjustifiably?—l think that, under the operation of this Bill, nobody will acquire any land except the Government. But I think now I see more into your mind, and the question you put, than I did ju^t now. I think that the operation of sections about roads and bridges will be found so oppressive that the Maoris will not bring their lands under the operations of those clauses. 834. Do you not think that these obnoxious clauses are met by the amendments which I propose ?—To a large extent, but you have made a new Bill of it. 835. Notwithstanding that my amendments would constitute a new Bill, do you not think that the present Bill would be improved by the insertion of them ?—I think your Bill is better than this Bill. 836. Do you not think that my amendments would bring prosperity to the Maoris and to the colony, and also to the Europeans ?—That is a great question. I think the greatest chance of bringing prosperity to Europeans and Natives alike will be by giving the Maoris titles which Europeans would recognize, and then let the Maoris do with their lands as they like. 837. Does not the Crown grant uphold the authority of a man over his land ?—Yes. 838. It gives a man absolute power to do what he likes with his land ?—Yes. 839. Seeing that they have obtained Crown grants in the past, has that brought prosperity to the Maoris ?—You know better than I do what prosperity they have had. <*? Mr. Wi Pere :If the Committee choose to examine me on that point I would tell you. Mr. Fenton : I think the question is a futile one. 840. Mr Wi Pere.] Does not a grant recite that absolute power over the land is given to the grantee for ever and ever ? —lt does not do anything of the sort: grants are made to heirs and assigns, and all the benefits follow the grants, if they choose to sell or lease, as a matter of course. 841. What goodwill come from the plan that you propose for individualizing each man's land; what prosperity will result from it ?—lf they wish to get their titles inalienable for ever they cannot sell the land or get money for it; they can keep the land always; but you cannot, as I said yesterday, eat you? .pudding and have it too. 842. Do you not think that prosperity would come to the country supposing two or three hundred Maoris in a block were to select their own Committee to administer the land ?—Yes.