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language, or who may be called Maori experts, they may keep their cases on hand and prolong the sittings of the Court to an indefinite period ?—Yes; the Court ought to have power to license special men. More than that: you mention that lawyers who had been previously before the Court have been operating without being subject to any authority whatever. I have no particular lawyer in my mind when I say this. But the matter has received a good deal of attention. The question was fought out between Sir William. Martin, Mr. Fox, and Mr. Stafford. The question was this : Can you in any way prevent a European from advising Natives? You cannot. You cannot do better than have able advice before a tribunal'; that is, if the tribunal has force. 769. Mr. Locke.} Sir George Whitmore told us that up in the East Cape country the bulk of the land passed under the Act of 187.3, and that in one block of six thousand acres, there were no less than one thousand four hundred names as owners : men, women, and children ; tuatuas with lots of children put these in. Is" there not some means of preventing such a state of things? — It is very easily prevented if the Court will take the trouble. 770. Sir (x. Grey.] You said that you heard the Waitara case ?—Yes. 771. Did you finish it?—We finished it, but we did not give any judgment. There were three of us—Judge Monro, Judge Eogan, and myself. 772. Did you ascertain whether William King had any right to the land?— Yes ; he was the principal owner : his was a very curious title. There was a man, whose name I forget: he represented, or his successors represented, two or three tribes, and, in the curious way of transferring, it came out that the father belonged to the one tribe and a son and daughter might belong to another tribe. A European cannot urnderstand it. However, this man, seven or eight generations back, had two daughters, whose names Ido not remember. One, I now remember, was Te Teira—the elder. They were what we would call in England " co-heiresses." There was descent, and descent from each of these until we come to William King, two descents from Te Teira, so that, according to Maori custom in those days, the rnana of the land came to William King. Whether there were two generations or one between, I am not certain. 773. I assume that you mean that power over the tribe and over the land vested in him? —He had the principal " say," to use a somewhat vulgar term. 774. It had been ovelooked in previous investigations?—lf there ever was one. The thing is perfectly clear; there is no doubt whatever about it. 775. This has never been put on record, and I am anxious to have it put on record. I will therefore put it in this way, so that there may be no misapprehension : Was William King the real owner of the land?—He represented the owners: he was the principal man. There were other owners, of course, but he was the principal man. 776. Hon. Mr. Ballance.] You said, in reply to a question put to you by Mr. Ormond, that European influence was the principal incentive to Natives to sell their land ?—He was referring to the past. 777. You went on to say that, as that incentive was wanting in this Bill, it was probable but that little settlement would take place under the Bill?—My answer was, apart from that, that the Bill was in effect so contrary to Maori ideas that it would not operate much. 778. What do you mean by European influence being an incentive to the sale of land?—ln the old days they had to make the survey and had no money to do it with. If they had not the money they could do nothing if they did not get money from some European. That was the first step. 779. Then, do you say that it was the European advancing them money which induced them to part with their land ? —lt enabled them to get the survey made. I think there always has been, and probably there always will be, a strong desire on the part of the Natives to retain their lands as long as they can. I think, if there is no other influence brought to bear upon them, the desire for money to gratify their tastes for luxuriousness has great influence over them. If it were not for some such influence as that they would never part with their land at all. 780. Would there not be the same incentive under a Bill where private individuals were prevented from dealing with lands direct—namely, the desire to get money. Would it not be the .same where private individuals were prevented from dealing with lands direct?— You mean if transactions were altogether stopped. Of course, whatever the desire was, then they could not gratify it. 781. You have said that the incentive to them to part with their land is to have the means to provide luxuries and the necessaries of life ?—I think so. 782. Supposing they cannot get money by selling direct to Europeans, but that there is a prospect of getting money under the machinery of this Bill, would not that be an incentive to them ? —No doubt we shall see the same state of things which grew up in 1860 ; that is to say, the Government anxious to get land and the Maori resolved not to part with any so long as he can possibly stick to it. 783. In your experience, is it the case that the Maori sticks to his land as long as he can or as much as he used to do ?—No; I do not think so. In the old days there was a strong national feeling as to the results of parting with their land. When I attended the great Waikato meeting In 1857 there was not only the natural desire which they all have to keep their land, but there was also the feeling that the loss of their land meant the loss of their dignity as a people. 784. Do you think that that feeling is becoming weaker ?—-Yes ; it is becoming weaker because they have lost all idea of being able to restrain the power of European colonization ; they look on it as hopeless. 785. Thee, in a word, you think there would be an incentive still if they were precluded from dealing with their lands by-Way of sale direct to private persons—the sale of the mana would provide these things^which you refer to ?—Of course it would be a struggle; there would be the pressure of necessity on one side, and on the other they have acquired habits which, through long