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483. Of your own knowledge can you say whether in your district the Natives would have been willing, at the time these early occupations took place, to have agreed to any general settlement on land by sale ? —No ; they are very indisposed to sell now : they always disliked selling. It was only by experience, as each hapu became acquainted w rith pastoral occupation, that they liked them, and consequently the men who followed them. In order to extend settlement of that kind, the Natives looked about for a pakeha who they thought would not cheat them. 484. Do you think, then, generally, that had no occupation of the kind taken place the country would have remained unoccupied ?—Certainly; all the country beyond Waiapu, right away to Hicks's Bay is a desert still; there is only one European that I know of living there. 485. You spoke yesterday of the duties you paid to the Government?— Yes. 486. Do you consider that the receiving these duties does in any way admit—that is, can the receiving of them by the .Government form any part of an admission of some sort of the right of occupancy ? —ln my opinion it is so ; of course I can only offer my opinion for what it is worth. It appears to me a shabby thing to take advantage of a legal quibble after taking a man's money upon a large scale out of his pocket. 487. I do not know whether you can go so far back as to be aware of what took place on the Bast Coast at the time of Sir Donald McLean's administration of Native affairs ?—Yes. 488. Do you know whether there was encouragement given of this kind of occupancy by that Minister, or the reverse ?—I think he did encourage it. At the time when I was Civil Comrnisioner on the Bast Coast, when dealing with the Natives for their lands was a penal offence, I was directed that if settlers who hired lands did not cheat the Natives, if there was no trouble arising out of such transactions, I was to refrain from bringing the Act into effect; but if difficulties did arise I was to bring the Act into force. 489. Do you remember whether the Natives at their meeting about that time put it generally to the Minister that he should assist them in letting Europeans come and occupy their land ? —I was not present on any such occasion, but I remember having seen that reported. Hon. Mr. Bryce (to Mr. Ormond) : What date are you speaking of ? Mr. Ormond : It was just after the settling down after the war. Hon. Mr. Bryce : That would be about 1870. 490. Mr. Ormond.'] I know, as a matter of fact, that the Natives were encouraged in that way, but my object was to get from Sir George Whitmore more information ; I thought he knew more about it than he supposes ?—That is a little accentuated by the circumstance that up to certain points Europeans were allowed to go; beyond that they were forbidden. Mr. Hallett was put in the guardhouse for a breach of the rule ; but afterwards the Government put no further obstacle in the way. 491. Was it not that he was prepared to prevent occupations if they were likely to lead to trouble among the Natives themselves—that is to say, disputes about occupancy ? —Yes ; that was the theory. 492. Do you know any case of the Natives requesting the Minister to facilitate this kind of occupation among them?— Yes; I remember to have read that in a Hawke's Bay paper. 493. Was not the outcome of this wish on the part of the Natives that instructions were given to the Civil Commissioner, which office you filled, not to take action unless difficulties arose?— Yes; that was about 1863, when it was a penal offence. 494. Hon. Mr. Bryce.'] 1863 ?—Yes; it was a penal offence; and I once had to threaten to enforce the law in the case of Mr. Gannon. 495. Mr. Locke.] Is it not a fact that the whole of that peninsula, with only one or two exceptions, has been occupied in this way?—So far as I know the land taken up there, that has been the case. 496. Hon. Mr. Bryce.] I should like to ask if it is so—if the whole country has been so taken up for so many years—what benefit has resulted from these transactions; to what extent have they settled the country ?—The colony has got property-tax, taxes of other kinds, and rates to pay. Mr. Locke : Then, there are five thousand Europeans there. Sir G. Whitmore : And these pay 20 per cent, upon their transactions; the Government also gets all the stamp duties which these people have to- pay without getting anything in return. 497. Hon. Mr. Bryce.] That is not a reply to the question I put. What has been done in the way of settlement of the land ?—All the people that are settled there are people who have come in in that way; they are making their own towns ; they are increasing every day. ■ 498. I want your opinion of the legal position of this matter. " I think I have already got it but you might again give it me, short. Were leases from Maoris before the ascertainment of title void in law ?—Yes ; Sir George Grey asked me that question. 499. Is there any provision in the law at present by which such leases can be rendered valid? —The law has absolutely no power over such land. 500. Then there is no such provision ?-. —No provision whatever; the law has nothing to do with such land; the land belongs to the Maoris, and the-law has nothing to do with it. 501. Is there a provision in the Bill before the Committee for rendering these leases valid?—ln certain cases; after examination, and after ascertaining the views of the Natives themselves—after the land becomes subject to law. 502. Now, I woidd ask you as a matter of opinion, whether- you do not think that these trans- ■ actions, which you .have -described to be void, have tended to prevent ascertainment of title and ■lawful occupation?—No; I Sm. quite sure that there never would'have been ascertainment of title, not only in my district, but right down to Wairarapa, if these transactions had not existed. 503. Can you give any reason to the Committee-for holding that opinion? — Yes, I will. In the first place, the Natives, generally speaking, are unwilling to part with their land; leasing, to them, appears to be half-way between selling and refusing to soil; their original power was only that of