I.—2a

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the arrangement with these Natives (the owners of this block) during the time I was myself Native Minister—in 1876-77. I need not go into the history of the Eangitikei-Manawatu purchase. There are a good many circumstances connected with that of which nobody need be proud. I found when I came into the Native Office that there was a dispute with certain hapus who laid claim to the Himatangi Block. I addressed myself to the settlement of that dispute. I had a meeting of all the chiefs interested, in my office in Government Buildings. At that meeting Dr. Buller, who was then representing the Native interest, was present. The whole question was then fully discussed. It was shown that the Natives who were interested in this block had preferred their claims before the Native Land Court sitting at Otaki. The Court, after a very long and patient investigation, awarded them a portion of the block, to the extent, I think, of 6,500 acres Mr. Leivis : 5,500 acres. Witness : One condition of that award was that the survey of the block should be made by the Natives for the Court within a specified time. The survey was not made, and the award of the Court lapsed. When I came to the consideration of the question, therefore, there was no settled claim to the block at all—no legal claim, I should have said. It was said that Parakaia, who was a leading chief among these natives, had got from Sir Donald McLean—having met him at the Thames or somewhere—l do not know exactly where—but it was said that Sir Donald McLean had made Parakaia a promise that this Himatangi Block should be given back to the Natives. There was not anywhere to be found any direct or formal evidence that a promise had been made by Sir Donald McLean, who had died in the interval. Except the assertion of one party, there was no way of arriving at the fact. There was, however, collateral evidence of another kind, weak enough—certainly not strong enough to found a claim upon; for, after all, that could only be a promise—but there was some slight evidence that such a promise had been made, and upon that promise, or evidence of a promise, I proceeded to effect a settlement of the whole of the land. The terms of that settlement, as arrived at by myself and Dr. Buller, were that I should endeavour to obtain for them a grant of the whole of the Himatangi Block—that is to say, that I should obtain for them 5,500 acres in excess of the award that had been made by the Native Land Court in their favour at Otaki. The conditions were that this was to be a final settlement of all claims of every kind of any and all Natives over that block on account of the Bangitikei and Manawatu purchase. The Provincial Government, represented by Dr. Featherston, had collected some £3,000 of back rents. The greatest part of that money had, without question, been paid to the Natives —about £2,500. A sum of £500 was questioned. It was said it had not been received by the persons to whom it was due, or something of that kind; but it was agreed that that disputed portion should be given up in consideration of the settlement which I proposed ; and this conveyance of the w Thole 11,000 acres was to be an absolute extinction of all claims arising out of that land, so far as the Natives and all parties were concerned. I brought this Bill into the Legislative Council in 1877 for the purpose of carrying out this agreement, and the agreement was practically represented in clause 17 of the Bill, which the Hon. Mr. Mantell has just read. In the latter portion of the clause there had been words referring to this £500—that is, evidence of the agreement made between .myself and the Natives as the condition on which the grant was to be made. As it w Tas going through the Committee of the Legislative Council that portion of the clause was struck out; but the general words remaining completely and absolutely covered the whole question. It is on the erasure of these words from the clause that the subsequent claims have been entirely hinged ; but the erasure of these words has no effect, or ought not, I think, to have any effect, on the agreement made between myself and the Natives. I hold that in dealing with Natives engagements should be always carried out with loyalty and precision on both sides; and I insist now, and have always insisted, that the passing of this Act completely extinguished all claims of the Natives on account of this block. All subsequent proceedings have regard not to genuine claims by Native owners, but are derivative, and I, individually, have set my face against them on that ground. If there were any unfulfilled engagements between the Government and the Natives on account of that Himataiigi Block they would have met with no person more willing than myself to insist that all such engagements should be fulfilled; but I believe there are no such unfulfilled engagements. When a bargain is made about the terms of which there is no dispute it ought to be kept. 235. Colonel Trimble.] Your statement, Dr. Pollen, has been so clear that I shall not have to detain you long; but there; are one or two misapprehensions which you can also clear up. Dr. Buller, in answer to a question, said, in reference to an interview he had with you about the terms of the settlement with the Natives, " I made the proposal, and the matter came before Parliament, but the Legislative Council struck it out." Was the interview with Dr. Buller before the Bill passed or afterwards ?—There may have been an interview afterwards. 236. The interview of which you speak in that speech [handing the witness a volume of -Hansard] ?—lt was before the passing of the Bill. 237. Dr. Bull r stated that he made the proposition to you without having referred to the Natives, but that the proposition was in the interests of the Natives. Were the Natives present at the time he made the proposition to you ? —According to my idea of the interview, I think the pß&position was my own ; but I am not sure that I know what you mean. 238. What was afterwards embodied in the Bill. But, w Thether it came from you or from him, were the Natives present ?—Certainly, all of them. 239. And did they consent to all that was then arranged ?—They did. 240. I asked Dr. Buller a question to this effect: " After that arrangement or interview with Dr. Pollen, whydid you afterwards make a claim for the money?" He stated in reply that he made a claim'for the money^because the arrangement with you had not been carried to a conclusion? —The arrangement %ith me was carried out completely. 241. Was it carried out by bringing in the Bill?— The bringing-in the Bill was the formal completion of the arrangement. If my recollection serves me right, before this formal completion,