I.—2a

12

204. Were you present at the Committee when Dr. Buller and Mr. Alexander McDonald gave evidence ? —ln what year ? 205. In 1883 ?—Yes, I was there. 206. Did you ever hear if Dr. Buller had made an arrangement with the Natives by which they were to forego their claims to back rents provided that they got the land returned ? —I think my knowledge arises wholly from looking through the papers. In 1878, I think, Dr. Buller had made some such proposal; but it would have been scarcely dignified to have accepted it. The memorandum of the Bth June, 1877 —but the Committee has the papers. 207. Did you hear of any proposition made by any Native chiefs—notably by Mahanui— • consenting to forego the rents ? —I have no recollection. I think I should have remembered it if made ; but I have no recollection. 208. The Legislative Council did not accept Dr. Buller's proposal to forego the rents on the occasion of the land being given back? —During the debate on the second reading of the Bill several members expressed disapprobation of that part of the 17th clause which was a guarantee against any claim on account of rents. In Committee on the Bill, on the motion of the Hon. Mr. Bonar, that clause was erased from the Bill. At the same time some doubts were expressed by some member or members as to whether what remained in clause 16 might not by ingenious legal interpretation be held to give the Government relief from having to repay the money, as if clause 17 stood ; but that was allowed to stand. The suggestion was laughed at, because it was thought that no Government would ever do anything of the kind. Mr. Leivis : I can produce the draft Bill with clause 17 in it. Witness : I have no doubt that is the clause. The concluding words of the 17th clause are, in effect, " our rents, issues, profits." [Clause read.] 209. Colonel Trimble.'] Are you aware of the area of the Himatangi Block?—I only know what is recorded in those Bills : 11,000 acres wore to be given back to them. 210. Mr. Te Ao.] Are you aware whether that land has been returned to the rightful owners —to those who claimed it?—l believe so. Such was the object of the Bill. 211. What is your opinion with regard to the application of the petitioner?--I have no opinions to express beyond what are to be found on the records. That opinion of mine is recorded very distinctly in some of them. 212. Mr. Parata.] You are aware that the petitioner asks £500, together with interest accrued? —I have no doubt of it. 213. And the Native Affairs Committee of the Legislative Council upheld the prayer of that petition?— Yes, more than once. 214. Mr. Pere.] Were you not aware that the original area of this block was 11,700 acres?— I cannot say exactly. 215. Are you not aware, then, that the Government wrongfully sold part of the block, amounting to 700 acres? —It is exceedingly probable, if they had the chance. Parliament passed an Act authorizing that 11,000 acres should be given back to the Natives. 216. Then the 700 acres was excluded purposely from the Bill? —No; I cannot tell that. The member of the Government who represented it in the Council is present—he will be able to give you the fullest information; but I question very much whether that was in contemplation, or within his knowledrp. 217. Then yon do not know of your own knowledge who they were who gave this 700 acres to the Government ? —I have not the slightest idea. 218. Do you think that the Natives have a just claim in asking for this money kept back by Dr. Featherston ?—I do not think I can give you any opinion upon that: that is a question for the Committee to decide. The Chairman : The Hon. Mr. Mantell is here to give evidence; not to give opinions. 219. Mr. Pere.] Do you know if the Maoris had made a protest against the action of the Government ?•—With regard to that, Parakaia was one of the chiefs of these Maoris ; he used not ..unfrequently to come into town; every time he came into town he came to me; every time he came to me he protested against what he held to be unfair treatment of the Natives. I ought to qualify the statement by saying that I attached no great importance to it; for I had no knowledge beyond what I have told this Committee, and I had been accustomed to hear complaints by Natives of"all sorts of things done by the Government, even when I knew the Government to be perfectly in the right. 220. Did Parakaia ever explain to you why he complained of the action of the Government ?— I have no doubt he did ; but I have already said I should not attach much importance to it at the time. It was only on looking into the papers that I saw there was ground for it. 221. Do you think that the Government are withholding the money for their own benefit or in the interest of the Natives ?—I am not a member of the Government at present. Were I a member I might say it was in the interest of the Natives ; not being a member of the Government, I_do not like to express any opinion. 222. I shall have an opportunity of asking that question of the gentleman that was in charge of Native affairs, but would you say whether it is a European custom to hold back money in this way? — [The Chairman : How can he tell whether it is customary ?] —" European" is such a wide word that I should hardly know : as to English customs, I might know something about them. 223. You have stated that Parakaia made representations to you about his grievance, but you did not attaeb^great importance to them because you only heard the statements on one side. Since then have you become acquaiaied with circumstances under which you had an opportunity of examining the correspondence. That is the reason why I ask you whether it is right that the Natives should be treated in""the way they have been?— You must be aware that my opinion has been expressed in the proper place—in the Select Committee of the Legislative Council, and in the Council