1.—15.

18

281. Are these prices mentioned in the second column the price you paid ?—Tes. 282. Was it yourself who paid this money, or yourself and Captain Heale ?—Captain Heale and myself were in partnership. 283. You subsequently bought Captain Heale out ?—We were partners in a great many things, especially mining. This did not turn out well, and required a great deal of money. He fell short of money before I did, and when we came to balance accounts he owed me about £3,000. We had a correspondence on the subject. He wanted me to take the land, and give him a release. I did not agree for some time, but at last I agreed to take the land and gave him a release. I have all that correspondence, if you wish to see it. 284. Have you any idea what was paid to Captain Heale as a consideration for his interest in this land?— Bather more than £3,000. 285. Was this land surveyed?— No. It has been surveyed within the last six weeks. It never could be surveyed before. 28G. There were 24,000 acres in that block altogether, and you are entitled to select 14,000 acres ? —14,800 odd acres in six different portions. I had six different claims, purchased from six different people. 287. Was there any right on the part of the Natives to have any land reserved out of this of yours ?—A particular place called Maukoro was reserved; but under the award of the Land Claims Commissioners, or when the Native title should be extinguished, I was entitled to select. 288. Can you give us the area of that ?—I am not absolutely certain, but it was about 700 acres. 289. And were the Natives residing upon this reserve ? —Tes. 290. And upon any other part of the 14,000 acres ? —No. There was a small settlement at a place called Kerepehi, on the Piako, but the principal settlement of that hapu of the Ngatipaoa tribe was Maukoro. It was their ancient residence. 291. Why was the land not previously surveyed?—l bought the first claim in 1854. There were then questions about the boundaries of the different adjacent claims interlacing with each other. There was a difficulty about that, and I bought out the others to get rid of the difficulty about boundaries. The Natives always wanted this land back again. 292. Did the Natives object to your occupying this land?—Tes. 293. What reason did they assign for that latterly ?—Their last objection was that, as the confiscated boundary had been marked off, all the land on one side of that line was the Governor's, and all the land on the other side belonged to them. Hence their objection; and this objection they raised several years ago. 294. Hon. Mr. Reynolds^ Did not Drummond Hay buy this land for the Government? —No. Drummond Hay paid something to extinguish certain claims. It was sold originally by the chiefs of two hapus —viz., Hori Tipa and Tarapipipi's father. Then Tarapipipi's people turned Hauhaus and King people. Hori Tipa's people were always on good terms with the Government, and rendered good service in time of war; but the other people were always supplying people to go to the war. You could not go into their district; it was in a state of rebellion. 295. Tke Chairman.^ You never made your selection of the 14,000 acres?—l never could until within four years ago. The Natives then began to be more friendly. I applied to Sir Donald McLean a dozen times with reference to getting my land. In the beginning of 1874 Tarapipipi proposed that some arrangement should be made about it; and shortly after that Mr. Mackay came to me and asked if I would give up the land in exchange for other land. I said at first, " No," as I desired to keep the land myself. He came two or three times and asked me to see Dr. Pollen; and after two or three interviews with Dr. Pollen I consented, and the agreement was signed in the presence of Mr. Mackay, Dr. Pollen, and myself. 296. Did Mr. Mackay come as accredited agent of the Government ?—Tes. 297. Did Dr. Pollen come to see you, or you to see him ?—I went to the Survey Office to see him, because the plans were there. The plans were produced so far as they were plans, but there had been no proper survey. 298. The result of that interview was this agreement which you have produced ?—Tes. 299. Then what were the reasons which the Government urged upon you for making this exchange ? —That they wanted to buy the Waitoa lands, and the lands extending towards the Thames, and the Natives refused to deal with them unless they got Maukoro back again. 300. Would the Natives not have been satisfied with the 700 acres ? —Certainly they would not. They always wanted to get all the Maukoro land back. What the Natives want and are anxious to do is not to be in the neighbourhood of Europeans. They want to be isolated, to be by themselves on the west side of the Piako Eiver. 301. Did they not recently sell a block near to that to Morrin Brothers, on the Maungawarra ?— That is miles and miles away. 302. Are these Natives now residing on the Maukoro Block?— They are residing on the boundary of this (Maungawarra) [points to map]. lam inclined to think that some of their cultivations extend into this block [points to map]. 303. The Government made the proposal to you, and not you to the Government ?—I did not want to make any proposal to them. I was prepared to make arrangements with the Natives themselves, without the interference of the Government. 304. Was it settled where you were to exercise your right of selection on the 200,000-acre block ? —I had a right to survey and take two different allotments in any place I pleased between the Piako and Waitoa Eivers. 305. Under what arrangement were these 200,000 acres acquired by the Government ? —I do not know at all. All I know is what I have told you: that they were wanting to make an arrangement with the Natives, and the Natives were willing to give up one side of the Kiver Piako, provided they got the other. They desired to obtain this land of mine in exchange.