7

1.—15

26. When did your appointment with the Government cease ? —I left the Government service in 1869. I commenced to purchase land for them in 1872. There was some trouble at the time of Sullivan's murder, and they asked me to act as agent for the General Government in Waikato. I did so from May, 1873, until June, 1874. I then returned to land purchasing as a commission agent, with the exception of acting as their agent for a short time at Ohinemuri in 1875. 27. I think you stated in one of your reports that your business is chiefly with the Government ? —Yes, in a letter to a newspaper. 28. And you do not do very much for private parties ? —Not much. Occasionally Ido work for private parties. 29. Have you got any maps of the Thames and Waitoa Districts ?—No ; I came down on business connected with land purchases, and did not bring any documents, not knowing I would have to give evidence in this matter. 30. Can you give the Committee any information as to where it is possible in Wellington to get maps connected with these districts ? —I presume Mr. Whitaker has got a tracing of the blocks of land there. I have none. I know the country well, and can tell by that skeleton plan where these blocks are situated. 31. Do you know the Te Puninga Block ?—Tes. 32. And Blocks 1, 2, 3, and 4?—Tes, all of them. 33. Is this land in the possession of the Natives ? —Some portions of it belonged to the Ngatipaoa tribe, and some to the Ngatitamatera tribe. They were not actually living on it; they own so much land that they cannot reside on it all. 34. Do they own it still ? —lt has been exchanged with Mr. Whitaker for other land. 35. What is the extent of Blocks 1, 2, and 3 ? —I think the first three blocks contain something like 8,000 acres. 36. In Block 4 how much ?—I think it is something above 1,900 acres, or 2,000 acres. 37. Was none of this land bought for the Provincial Government years ago ? —-Major Drummond Hay, an officer of the General Government, bought some of it with funds provided by the Provincial Government. 38. Were you negotiating for any portion of the Taupiri Block ?—Some financial arrangement was come to between the General and Provincial Government. The land was purchased many years ago by Captain Drummond Hay. The General Government refunded the money to the province. 39. Who owns these blocks now ?—The General Government. They were purchased for the province, but the province could not get possession on account of the Native difficulties. The province complained that it had been for years out of its money, and the General Government refunded the money and kept the land. 40. Mr. Stevens.'] Under what Act was the land acquired by the General Government ?—lt was bought, I think, from 1852 to 1854, by Captain Drummond Hay, General Government Land Purchase Commissioner; the General Government purchased these lands. Hay was a General Government officer, and he purchased with moneys provided by the province. The province afterwards made some bother about the thing, because they could not take possession of the land, and the General Government said "We will give you the money and take the land." The money was refunded, I think, about 1867, during the time I was Civil Commissioner for the Government. 41. The Chairman.'] Was any part of the land forming Puninga Nos. 1, 2,3, and 4 Blocks included in the negotiations which you were carrying on on behalf of the General Government with the Natives ?—Yes. 42. Will you state whether this Puninga Block was included?—lt was included within the boundaries of a block of 200,000 acres for which I was in negotiation with the Natives. There was a special arrangement concerning it. In this neighbourhood (Drummond Hay's Piako Block) Mr. Whitaker was entitled to select in six blocks within something like 24,000 acres, 12,855 acres, or, with the allowances for survey, 14,783 acres, in not more than six blocks within that area, it being a large land claim generally known as Webster's old claim. That was in the Piako Block. Perhaps we had better call it Drummond Hay's Piako Block. 43. Mr. Stevens.] When was that right of selection acquired by Mr. Whitaker ?—I do not exactly know. This is how the thing stands : There were five or six persons who bought land from the Natives. The land they claimed was some 80,000 acres. The Court made awards of 5,000 acres to Webster, and lesser areas to five other persons. Messrs. Whitaker and Heale purchased these awards from the parties, thus acquiring the right to select 12,855 acres altogether for these six blocks. That is the position of it. The document (copy of Mr. Bell's award) says that Mr. Whitaker could select up to this quantity of land (12,855 acres). 44. Mr. Wakefield.] Under what Act was that award made? —Under "The Land Claims Settlements Act, 1854," I think. The award was made by Sir Dillon Bell, then Land Claims Commissioner. 45. The Chairman.] Were the selections made ?—-They were not. 46. Why ?■ —Because the Natives lived on the land, and they would not allow Mr. Whitaker to take possession. Captain Heale went up on several occasions when I was Civil Commissioner of the Thames District, and tried to survey the land, but he could not manage it. The Natives would not allow him. 47. Why not ?—Because their ancestors and chiefs of the tribe were buried there, and they did not wish to give it up. Besides, the Governor had fixed the boundary of the Waikato confiscated lands, and they maintained that it was to be the boundary of the lands acquired by Europeans or the Government. 48. Did the Natives objecting to possession being taken by Mr. Whitaker represent those who sold it ?—A great many of the original settlers were dead. It is often found now that the young fellows of the present day repudiate all the acts of those who are gone. When I commenced to negotiate for this land, Tarapipipi, the principal chief of the Ngatipaoa tribe residing in this district, made a stipulation that there should be a rectification of the eastern boundary line of the confiscated lands in