F.—No. 6a.

Tuesday, 31st August, 1869. Peesent: Mr. J. Cracroft "Wilsou, C.B. | Mr. Creighton, Mr. Wells. On the Petition of James de Hirsch, of Shortland, being considered, it was resolved that Mr. de Hirsch be called in and examined. Mr. de Hirsch having appeared, handed in to the Committee an affidavit, which was read. Mr. de Hirsch. was then examined. 1. Mr. Orei(jldon.~] You state that your first lease was on the 30th Juno, 1868: under that deed you acquired the surface right for 21 years ? —Tes. I produce the lease. 2. Subsequently, on the 15th February, 1869, you state that you obtained a second lease from the Natives, demising to you the right of mining for gold beneath the surface of the same piece of land? When I leased the land on the 30th June, I was under the impression that the first lease would secure the right of mining : as I was not sure, I called upon my solicitors, about the middle of February, 1869 who then advised me to see Mr. Whitaker, of Auckland. My solicitors were Messrs. Whita'k'er and Macdonald, of Shortland. I submitted the case to Mr. Whitaker, of Auckland, and he advised me to take up or get another lease, purporting to be a mining lease, which I obtained and now produce. Mr. Whitaker stated at the same time that, as the Natives had never signed any agreement whatsoever with the Government, it would be no use to take it up under miners' rights. 3. You state in your affidavit that the lands on the flat at Waiotahi were not included in the original Gold Fields Proclamation, but that subsequently they were included by proclamation of 16th April, 1868, and that according to your belief this proclamation was issued to give the Government the right to construct roads, but the Natives had not conceded the right to mine: do you not know that the Graham's Town land was not included in the original agreement between Mr. Mackay and the Natives ? —I do know that the Graham's Town land was not included in the first agreement with the Natives. 4. The first proclamation only extended to lands over which the right to mine was ceded by the Natives ? —I believe so. 5. That first agreement was the 27th July, 1867, and was proclaimed on the 80th July 1867 and the 7th August, 1867 ?—Yes. J ' 6. By second agreement, dated 9th November, 1867, did Mr. Mackay acquire for the Government the right to mine over the Graham's Town Flat?—l cannot say of my own knowledge. 7. On 9th March, 1866, Mr. Mackay entered into a third agreement with the Natives: did that agreement purport to include the lands at Graham's Town ?—I believe so. 8. Under that agreement did the Governor acquire the exclusive right to mine for gold under the lands in question ? —I am not sure about that. Mr. Creighton then read part of the agreement, viz. :—" The Chiefs and people of Ngatimaru and Ngatiuhanaunga, of Hauraki, on the one part, and Sir George Ferguson Bowen, Governor of New Zealand, on the other part, witnesseth the consent of all of them, that is of the Chiefs and people of Ngatimaru and Ngatiuhanaunga, on behalf of themselves and their heirs, to release (give over) to Sir George Ferguson Bowen, Governor of New Zealand, and the Governors who may succeed him, a certain piece of land in the district of Hauraki, for gold mining purposes, for himself'and his assigns within the meaning of the Statute intituled ' The Gold Fields Act, 1866.' " 9. Does this convey to the Crown the exclusive right of mining over the land described in the agreement ?—Yes ; but the lessors in my case did not sign the agreement; they did not know what was going on, they were away. 10. Your first deed was dated the 30th June, 1868, and Mr. Mackay's agreement was dated on the 9th March, 1868, being three months prior to the date of your lease ? —Yes. 11. Did you know, at the time you made the agreement, that the land was included in the boundaries of the Gold Field ?—No. I always understood that the boundary of the Gold Field only extended, at that time, to the base of the hill. Mr. Mackay encouraged me in that belief. He told me, about the time the land was passing through the Native Lands Court, that the Crown would not interfere with private parties leasing land from the Natives in Graham's Town, but reserved the right of making roads for the public. 12. Did you know of the Proclamation of the Gold Fields boundary of the 14th April, 1868 ?— I knew nothing of thp Proclamation till about a fortnight ago, when I found it affected my rights. I was living at Graham's Town at the time the Proclamation was issued. I was engaged as a share broker and land speculator. I heard about that time of the agreement of the 9th March, and my belief was that the Proclamation of the 14th April was made in consequence of that agreement. 13. Was your first dealing with the Natives of the 30th June, 1868, as to that land subsequent to its Proclamation as being within a Gold Field ?—Yes ;my first lease was dated 30th June, 1868, and the Proclamation was dated 14th April, 1868, and my second lease, purporting to convey to me the right to mine, was dated 15th February, 1869. I desire to make a general statement to the Committee.

Mr. de Hindi. 31st August, 1869.

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NATIVE LANDS BILL COMMITTEE. Appendix A. MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE.