NATIVE MEETING, WAIROA. (REPORT BY MR. LOCKE.)

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1876 Session I, G-01a

G.—la

1876. NEW ZEALAND.

NATIVE MEETING, WAIROA. (REPORT BY MR. LOCKE.)

Presented to both Houses of the General Assembly by Command of Sis Excellency.

No. 1. Mr. S. Locke, E.M., to the Hon. the Native Minister. Sic, — Napier, 17th December, 1875. I have the honor to forward herewith a short summary of the speeches made by the Natives at the Wairoa on the 29th October last, on the occasion of my meeting the contending tribes in regard to the disputed boundary of lauds at Upper Wairoa, prior to taking the question into the Native Land Court for final settlement. I have, &c, The Hon. the Native Minister, Wellington. S. Locke. Notes of a Meeting held at the Wairoa, on Friday, October 29th, 1875, between S. Locke, Esq., E.M., and the Ngatikabungunu and Tuhoe or Urewera tribes. The meeting was called with reference to land claims and disputed boundaries at the Upper Wairoa, preparatory to the question being brought before the Native Land Court for final settlement. The leading men of the tribes were present, and altogether about 700 Natives were assembled. The meeting lasted for nearly five hours. — Tolia: The subject upon which I am about to speak is that which, is now reduced to the question of dispute about this land. We, the people of Kahungunu, say the land is ours; and you, the Urewera, with equal force assert that it is yours. We are all aware that application has been made to have this land adjudicated upon by the Native Land Court, and to my mind it is only by adopting such a course that this disputed matter will be smoothed away. I have nothing more to add. Mr. Locke, perhaps, may wish to address you. Mr. LocTce: I would ask your attention. We have met here to-day to discuss this land question, and also the intertribal boundary, before they come before the Land Court, there to be dealt with. We have met here with a view to affording all parties an opportunity of ventilating their opinions on the subject. Those Natives acting in concert with the Government —namely, the Ngatikahungunu tribe —assert their claim to the land on ancestral grounds ; and also because, during the period of trouble in the island, they adopted the cause of the Government. On the other hand, you, the people of Tuhoe, contend that portions of the land so claimed by Ngatikahungunu belong to you, having, as you declare, been either inherited by you from your forefathers, or acquired from your enemies through the right of conquest. The boundary which you (Tuhoe) assign to yourselves in the direction of the Wairoa approaches as far as Mangapapa, while that line claimed by Ngatikahungunu extends beyond Mangapapa across Waikare Lake, and thence up to the Huiarau Mountains. This land —that is, up to Waikaremoana Lake —was confiscated during the time of the rebellion, the principal owners of the land having allied themselves with the enemy of the Government. On the restoration of peace, some little time elapsed, when the Government relinquished its hold to a large tract of the country so confiscated, in favour of the Natives of the district who had throughout preserved their allegiance to the Crown. Subsequently thereto, action was taken to effect the transfer of this land to the Government; and now the question arises :To whom does the land belong ? With whom rests the power of legally conveying this land to the Government ? It is to meet these questions that the necessity occurs of having the land dealt with primarily by the Native Land Court. The adjustment of this question is one of no small difficulty. Both parties strongly urge their respective rights to the land on account of ancestral connections. Those Natives who have had lengthy intercourse with Europeans, and whose claims have been brought before the Court, are conversant with the mode of procedure adopted in the investigation of land titles, but such may not be the case with the Urewera, for they have been isolated. I will now mention the boundaries of the land claimed by the people of the Urewera tribe, which are—Pakaututu, Mohaka, Tuke-o-te-Ngaru, Paewahie, Ngahaha, Botokakarangu, Tukitukipapa, Putere, Te Arau, Eotonuihaha, Potikihere, Te Toi, I—Gr. IA.

2

G.—lA

Whirinaki, Waiwhakaata, Puharakeke, Te Paepae, Tukutapa, Tukurangi, Mangapapa, Wharepapa, "Whataroa, Erepeti, Tauwharetoro, Te Ihu o Mangatapere, Te Mapara, Puhinui, Waioeka, Whakamauki, Pukenui-o-Eaho. Ngatikahungunu, on the other hand, state that their boundary extends to the Huiarau Mountains. I, however, will refrain from making any definite remarks pending the investigation of title by the Native Land Court. Now the claims of the Urewera are among those in the Kahiti published for hearing, and it would be as well for them (Urewera) to begin by stating what really are the limits of their claims. The discussion throughout should be carried on in a spirit of amity. Nor is this the time to refer to grievances, or to matters of a nature likely to excite feelings of bitterness. lam glad to see that many different tribes are assembled here, many having come from the interior and from Mohaka, Mahia, Turanga, and other parts of the country. It will bo a source of gratification to all to have the question now occupying our attention thoroughly sifted by yourselves, before having the matter referred to the jurisdiction of the Native Land Court. If such a plan be adopted it will tend to expedite the business for the transaction of which we are now assembled, and at the same time relieve the Court of any further action, beyond ordering a memorial of ownership in favour of those persons acknowledged to be entitled to the land. Hori Wharerangi (Urewera) : Why we applied to the Court to have the question of title settled, was first on account of the Government boundary, then on account of the Ngatikahungunu boundary, and furthermore owing to the boundary which we, Tuhoe, had ourselves laid down. Judging from the many interests apparently involved, we deem it advisable to have the matter dealt with by the Court. Makarini te Wharehuia (Urewera) : I indorse the views expressed by the last speaker. I make no comment on the boundaries read over by Mr. Locke, further than relates to those particular blocks set down for adjudication by the Court, they being included in the Governmental boundaries. The Ngatikahungunu boundaries I would have dealt with similarly to those of the four blocks. But the boundary line of the land belonging to Tuhoe must exist independently of those given in the application. Tamihana Huata (Ngatikahungunu) : You are quite right in what you say. The Native Land Court is here, and we can only wait and watch for the results. You, Makarini, say the boundaries mentioned by Mr. Locke are not the boundaries of your lands. Then I would ask, To whose land do those boundaries pertain ? Or by whom were they laid down ? Hori Wharerangi (Urewera) : That is easily explained. I defined those boundaries given out by Mr. Locke, and did so because Ngatikahungunu was fast absorbing all the land that belonged to us. I am especially alluding to the four blocks, Tukurangi, Waiau, Euakituri, and Taramarama. Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngatikahungunu): Listen, O European friends! You, too, 0 Tuhoe, hearken! Give your attention. For the boundaries of the disputed lands I will give as the principal points Maungapohatu, Huiarau, as relating to Ngatikahungunu. My own claim to the lands about which we are discussing is based upon ancestry. You, the Urewera, have a boundary at the places named, which, according to your own account, you have maintained through conquest. True, you have a boundary there, but it is of recent date. The Government boundary line which has been laid down, and the boundary line also which the Urewera claim, I would expunge, tor my land extends beyond them. We have the Government of the country represented here, and, now that we are face to face, I ask that my boundary line be established up to Huiarau. In the times that have passed away no such appeal as this that I now make would be uttered, for my ancestors were fully capable of making, defending, and permanently retaining the boundaries of their lands. But in these days in which we live a new phase exists. The Government of the country is the ascendant power. It is the Government that now has the upper hand. The sun shines for them; their party is the stronger ; and it is with the Government the settlement of this discussion rests. (The speaker now gave the boundaries of the four blocks.) The land comprised within the boundaries just repeated by me ia in the hands of the Government. In vain have I endeavoured to regain that land. The Urewera, too, have made the same fruitless effort. Makarini te Wharehuia (Urewera) : I will confine my remarks to-day to the question of the boundaries of the land. I will eschew any comment on the action of the Government with regard to the boundaries fixed upon by them. But concerning the boundary of Ngatikahungunu I will urge its removal. My own boundary line I wish confirmed in its present position irrespective of the Government lines. Tamihana Huata (Ngatikahungunu) : Very well. I concur in what you say. We shall leave the boundary claimed by the Government to remain over for the day, and talk about our own boundary, which stretches away to Huiarau, and yours (the Ureweras') which extends so far as Mangapapa. We, Ngatikahungunu, now demand that you show upon what foundation you lay claim to Mangapapa, as part of your boundary line. Makarini te Wharehuia (Urewera) :My boundary was Huiarau, and is now Mangapapa. These places were selected by my ancestors. Tamihana Huata (Ngatikahungunu): What I say is this : Your ancestor did not claim the Mangapapa boundary. After the fight at Kopani, and when a proclamation of peace was issued, then it was that you, the Urewera, travelled through the country to Mangapapa on your way to Napier. At a meeting held subsequently thereto, Paerau te Eangi went to Whenuanui and said to him that Ngatikahungunu could retain the confiscated land, and give back to him (Paerau) the land that was not seized. To this I assented, but no further action was taken. Then a meeting was held at Onepoto, and our arrangements that were formerly agreed to were here annulled. The subject devolved upon the Government, for among ourselves we evinced no ability to satisfactorily dispose of the difficulty, even when we sought to abide by our own ancient customs. Makarini te Wharehuia (Urewera) :My claim rests upon hereditary grounds. Pourewa is the ancestor. He it was who established Mangapapa as a portion of our boundary. Huiarau also belonged to an ancestor of mine, and I appear here as his direct lineal descendant. Tamihana Huata (Ngatikahungunu) : The boundaries you talk of have nothing to do with the land. My own claim is Kuhatarewa.

8

G.—lA.

Hori Whareranqi (Urewera) : When our dispute touches upon the four blocks, we tread upon confiscated laud. When we talk of Iluiarau we trend towards the subject of ancestry. Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngatikahungunu) : I wish you to explain to me who really was the ancestor through whom you lay claim. You say, "My boundary is here—my boundary is there." If you say the confiscated land is your ancestor, on those grounds we will fight the question out with you. Again, should you rest your claim on the power of your forefathers, I would like you to inform us who those progenitors were. Te Reneti Pingari (Ngatikahungunu) : Confiscation has been surrounding me on all sides. All opportunities have passed away from me of proving upon what basis my claim rests. But I tell you that I am the owner of Waikare. None of you can advance a claim to that land in opposition to mine. Makarini te Wharehuia (TJrewera) : My ancestor through the right of conquest got possession of Mangapapa. He dwelt upon the land. Hence my having a voice in the matter. Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngatikahungunu) : "Well, so far you are right. Tour claim, you state, is on the principle of the right of conquest. But the idea of the Urewera assuming a right to the land on such grounds is simply ridiculous. The Urewera can never claim on those grounds. Not so with the Ngatikahungunu. They have very substantial claims through the right of conquest. To a certain extent I admit that you have some right to advance a claim, but nevertheless I ask you, Makarini, to show me on what basis you do so. My ancestors conquered beyond Mangapapa, and so have all the tribes of this island, as far as that goes. But my victories have been achieved by myself, and they are by far the most important of all the conquests. They include Mangapapa and stretch away to Huiarau. I myself have figured there, and so have my ancestors. Hori Wharerangi (Urewera) : It was I who conquered that land, and you were my toenga patu. By birth I claim the land. By might I claim it. In the days of our ancestors we were the principal people, and even down to the present period no one has gained the upper hand of us. Hence it is I fix my boundary at Mangapapa. Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngatikahungunu) : We defeated you in times gone by, and again at a more recent date. Tou cannot say you have ever done so to us. When your enemies pursued you we gave you shelter, and guarded you back to your homes. Tou cannot gainsay that. I took you back to Mangapapa. How then can you contend any longer that you were the conquerors, when we were the people who protected you when your enemies assailed you ? Hori Whareranqi (Urewera) : To-day we are not enemies. Once we were : still you cannot prove that you made me subservient to you. On my own land I have always been capable of defending myself. I have, on the contrary, reduced you to such a state that you were on more occasions than one a tanrjata of mine. This accords with my previous remark to the effect that you were my toenga patu. Tamihana Huata (Ngatikahungunu) : Explain to me the battles in which you gained victories over us. We are only aware of the predilection for thieving, in former times, when you were accustomed to sneak into our forests, and steal our pigeons, kakas, and other birds. Such indeed were the victories you gained. However, lam not desirous of continuing in this strain. Kerei te Ota (Ngatikahungunu) : If you, the Urewera, advance your claim as bearing on the right of conquest, I am fully prepared to cope with you on that point. Kereru te Pukenui (Urewera) : I. would rather refrain from speaking on this occasion at any great length. We will see what transpires in the Court. I have merely come to return the money which has been paid on account of the purchase of our land. We desire the line dividing the land of the Urewera from that of Ngatikahungunu being clearly laid down. I am against money being expended on account of the purchase of land beyond Mangapapa, for the land there belongs to me. I have no more to say at present. I may reserve any further remarks of mine until Igo into the Land Court, where I will reply at greater length to anything that will be here spoken of. Tamihana Huata (Ngatikahungunu) : Now, Mr. Locke, lam addressing my words to you. Tou advised us to settle this difficulty about the land question out of Court. I concurred with you in your advice. I am, however, informed that Kereru te Pukenui wants the matter discussed in the Court. To either course lam quite prepared to assent. He'knows the ground we tread upon, and so do I. They, the LTrewera, say that Ngatikahungunu who occupy the country towards the coast should be debarred from taking any action with reference to the matter in hand. They are willing to admit the right of those persons of Ngatikahungunu who are actually located on the land. And I contend that as we are all of one tribe we all have the same right. I will mention the boundaries from the time of Rakaipaka and Tapuae down to the present day. (Boundaries given.) Tiopirn Kaukau](N gatiknhnnguuu) : When the claims of Rakaipaka and Tapuae are discussed, Ngatikahungunu cannot remain silent. Our boundaries are like unto the roof of a house. It cannot be expected that the rain dropping from the eaves on one side, will return and fall from the eaves on the other side. Wi Mahuika (Aitanga Mahaki) : I was holding myself in readiness to enter upon the many questions pertaining to this difficulty, but, now that Pukenui says the matter is to be referred to the Native Land Court, it is needless for me to do so, and considering that no further discussion will take place. Mr. J. P. Hamlin : I wish to say a word because I initiated the subject with the Urewera. Several times I asked you to come and assemble together so that this matter might be talked over. For a considerable period no movement was made. At length a meeting was convened which took place at Te Kapu. Then it was deemed expedient to adjourn that meeting till some more fitting occasion, and now we meet here again, and assent to the proposals made. Kereru te Pukenui (Urewera) : I conduct my own affairs, and you, the Ngatikahungunu, can do the same as far as their own business is concerned. I am in favour of the question now under discussion being postponed, and as far as lam personally concerned will do so. That is all I have to say to Mr. Hamliu. I claim Putere, Waiau, and Mohaka. It is part of my inheritance. lam unacquainted with any one wRo can support a better claim. In the same manner do I claim Mangapapa up to Mangata-

G.—lA,

4

pere. It devolves upon me through my ancestral descent. Sir Donald McLean stated in Napier that this question had better be settled in Napier before Mr. Locke and Tareha, but as the Native Lands Court has come to the Wairoa it will represent the place suggested by Sir Donald. Hence it is we have come here with a view to having the question relating to boundaries set finally at rest. But you, the people of Ngatikahungunu tribe, we will not permit you to devour our land. Mr. Locke: lam very well pleased with the results of this meeting. At first there was uncertainty as to the direction the discussion might assume, but the talk throughout exhibits a tendency favourable to the issue : that is, the matter of adjusting the boundary question existing between the Urewera and the Ngatikahungunu tribes, which question is to be left to the Native Land Court to decide. That is the course I suggested to you at Euatahuna last year, and the object of this discussion was to have the matter ventilated amongst you. I have one word more to say, and that is with reference to the blocks of land to be brought before the Court. I have been thinking to myself which block should come on for adjudication first. There are six blocks to choose from, out of which it might be more expedient to allow those that will involve dispute to remain on one side, while those not similarly circumstanced may be investigated forthwith. I would have Eotokakara and the Putere blocks among the first selected, as there may be no important opposition; but I find that the ownership of all the claims is opposed, and 1 therefore leave it to yourselves to fix upon the block you will have dealt with first by the Native Land Court. Toha (Ngatikahungunu) : I am quite willing that Eotokakarangu should be gone on with first. lam surprised at any opposition being raised in regard to the ownership of that land. The dispute, however, is one of little moment. Why should I perplex myself with people whose opposition can be removed with the ease of extinguishing a lighted match ? Hori Wharerangi (Ngatikahungunu) : I have nothing to say in reference to that land. Kereru te Pukenui has a claim to it, but he is quite competent to manage his own affairs. I have expressed my views on the matters in hand, and have no further observations. Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngaiikahungunu) : A Ngatikahungunu chief divested of reason met his death at Waikaremoana Lake. There were two canoes at his command, but he availed himself of neither. A similar fate awaits Tuhoe, both at the hands of this meeting and the Native Land Court. Tuhoe will be lost, both here and in the Land Court. Hetaraka te Whakaunui (Urewera) : I will reply about the Putere. Ido not wish your claim to be excluded, but would rather that the interests of the TJrewera and Ngatikahuugunu to the block in question be amalgamated. Toha (Ngatikahungunu) :I do not know why this dispute should bo prolonged. My remarks refer only to that portion allotted by my ancestor for his descendants. 1 know of nothing about your claims, but when I discover that you encroach upon my land it can hardly be expected that I am to remain silent. Kolmwai was the ancestor who travelled all over this land; but I need not dwell upon this, as you, the Urewera, have decided that the matter should come before the Land Court, to which course 1 will acquiesce. Tamiltana Huata (Ngatikahungunu) : The people of the tribe whereof I am a member agree to the proposals made by you, the Urewera, that the question now before us be left to the Native Land Court to decide. No other course remains then for me but to signify my assent to the suggestions. We have been advised already by the representatives of the Government to adjust the matter among ourselves, but we failed in satisfactorily setting at rest the question even up to the present time, notwithstanding that we endeavoured to abide by ancient usage in the matter. Makarini te Wharehuia (Urewera) : In spite of all you state in furtherance of your claim, I still contend that I have a right to the land, which right I will maintain as long as I have the power. I totally ignore the claim put forth through ancestral connection with Eakaipaka. Pukehori is the ancestor from whom the ownership of the land devolves upon me—that is, the land contained within the four blocks. Hori Wharerangi (Urewera) : I do not care how the matter is settled—whether outside here, now, or inside the Court. I am going to return the money the Government advanced on account of those blocks: that is to say, I will not part with the land. Hamana Tiakiwai (Ngatikahungunu) : Let your boundary line be firmly established at Mangapapa if you can prove your title to it. Should you advance further in this direction from Mangakahu, I will act against you, and, in addition to my so doing, I shall extend my own boundary line on the other side. In the days of our ancestors there might perhaps be some substantiality in your claim, but in the present time your pretensions will not hold good. Both the land and you, Makarini te Wharehuia, have been my captives. Then cease opening your mouth any more on this matter, for, as I have already said, both you and the land were mine. Nor should you omit to recall to your mind that it was solely out of my regard to you that you are at present in existence at Waikare. We rescued you. It is futile your talking about your ancestors claiming here and there. My own ancestors did precisely the same. Look at Ngatikahungunu from whom descended Tapuae. He was the rahui of the land. He was the only recognized head in the days of our ancestors. And who, I ask, are his descendants ? We are his children. But place all that on one side —myself and the Government are the rahui of the land. Makarini te TPharehuia (Urewera): You are correct in what you say. The land was confiscated, but the Government returned it to us. The basis of our claim, therefore, depends upon the gift made to us of the land. You, Hamana, were a pononga utu of the Government. With regard to the ancestor spoken of, namely Tapuae, I know naught of him. My dwelling is at Waikare, and Tapuae lived upon the coast, in the vicinity of the place where we now are. Tapuae's engagements with his enemies occurred along the coast. I, living in the interior, take no cognizance of wars between the people on the coast. lam considerably interested in the four blocks, and in reference to them will confine myself to what bears upon matters affecting the interior of the country. In point of chieftancy I am far your superior, as will readily appear by tracing our genealogical descent from our respective ancestors.

G.— lA

5

Hoani Wainoho (Ngatikahungunu) : I am not in the paid service of the Government, nor have I ever importuned the Government by applications for relief, in compensation for any assistance I may have rendered in taking part against those who rebelled. I adopted the cause which, according to my own view of matters, had justice and right to support it, and in doing so I disregarded all feelings of kinsmanship. I acted as willingly against our own people who were led away into the ranks of Hauhauism as I did against the Urewera. And I fought against the Urewera, for they said that which was evil of us. You, the Urewera, stated that your heels would press down the necks of those associated with the Government side. Another of you said he would adorn the girdle round his waist with the heads of the chiefs who became allied with the Government. Again, another of you declared that he would convert the head of Mokena Kohere into a snare wherewith to decoy kakas from the trees. Such is the stamp of man we were forced to take up arms against. And I would ask you, is it right or proper that men should parley about payment for fighting against such people as those I have just referred to ? On this very ground where we are now standing, Sir Donald McLean offered to remunerate me for my services, and I told him I was not in need of payment. Ifakarini te Wharelnda (Urewera) : I differ from you. Toil acted with the Government under whose direction you fought against us. Tou were nothing more than a pononga utu —a paid servant of the Queen. Tolm (Ngatikahungunu) : And you, Makarini, were an ww-paid servant of the King. Son Wkarerangi (Urewera-Ngatiruapani) : I take entire exception to what Ngatikahungunu state relative to their boundary. They have the assistance of the Government. It should be our endeavour to remove all obstacles surrounding the present question, by dealing with it on purely ancestral grounds. Toha Rahurahu (Ngatikahungunu) : Without prolonging the discussion to an unnecessary length, I may say that I am quite willing to admit the claim of one or two of you, that is, those who possess an independent right to the Putere Block. But I have no intention whatever of consenting to all of you, as having an interest in the land in question. Makarini te "VVharehuia has no claim to any of the four blocks. Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngatikalmngunu) : Although I have stood up to speak, there is nothing of importance left for me to say, for you, the Urewera, have brought the whole discussion to a close by stating that yon leave the determination of the boundaries in the hands of the Native Land Court. My o*rn claim is Mangapapa, and it was from that place my forefathers drove away your ancestors. Kalmngunu travelled all over that laud. What ancestor of the Urewera people was ever at Mohaka, or at any of those lands ? lam Kahungunu. The Urewera is but a chip from our great progenitor. Why do you not run over your genealogy ? Enumerate some of the deeds of your ancestors ; tell me of their prowess in those generations that have passed away, so that I may learn of where those fathers of yours really existed. As things are at present, as far as lam concerned, the circumstances in connection with your claims are quite in obscurity. To now verge upon another topic, I may tell you that such wealth as I accumulate I find results in advantage to me. Tou, too, cau have the wealth such as that I speak of. I too have the full control and management of my own business, nor have I voluntarily parted with land to the Government. The Government acted upon its own power in the matter of taking the land. Notwithstanding that I should submit to whatever course the Government lays down, it must not be inferred therefrom that I am prepared to undergo the same subservience at your hands. I have already met you on two or three different occasions with a view to disposing of this question, but no beneficial result accrued. To-day you again display the same apathetic indifference in having the whole dispute thoroughly entered into while we are here. Hori Wharerangi (Urewera-Ngatiruapani) : In some of the observations you have just made, you have not always availed yourself of the truth. So far from your ever having been dominant to me, and assisting my location upon the land, you were yourself a leai main kai of mine. Tou were defeated in the first fight that took place between us. Then you remained in vassalage. In later times the Government aided you in your efforts to overthrow me, but you have failed to accomplish your ends. Ihahara Wharemaho (Ngatikahungunu) : Tou, the Urewera, were the hai indhi Icais. Prom the period in which lived Te Eito-o-te-Eangi you have been considered such. Kokorangi and Whitiawa are places where you procured tribute for us. At Manawarua your ancestor Wairua was placed in an umu, and at the same place the Urewera tribe were completely routed by the Ngatikahungunu. Again did you suffer defeat at Mangaharuru, and many also were the hangis prepared after the close of the fight. After this occurrence all trace of the Urewera tribe was lost save on the borders of the Waikato. Makarini te Wharehuia (Urewera) : Umuariki was our ancestor. He fell a victim to your vengeance—to Ngatiruapanis. We bore this in our thoughts, and at Pukehuia we obtained recompense for Umuariki's murder. Another evil deed was perpetrated by Ngatikahungunu, for which Tieki paid the penalty. Then peace was made. We gained the last conquest. I merely mention this as relating to my claim to land about Waikare. It was at that place the Urewera gathered when Ngapuhi came, when an attack was made on the Waikotore pa. Not one of the enemy escaped. We there encountered your ancestor, Te Amo. He fell into the ambuscade that awaited him. He was slain, and we returned triumphant to Waikare. Again w re met you at Owhio, but you apparently deemed it better to retreat. Tukurangi then became our chief place of residence. Eeverting now to a more recent period, when I myself became trammelled in the meshes of war, it was not to the Ngatikahungunu that fact owed its accomplishment. It was to the Pakeha. How then can you, the Ngatikahungunu, presume to speak of me as if I were a refugee? Tamihana Huata (Ngatikahungunu) : If you confine yourself to Waikare, I will withdraw all my opposition to your claim. It is your boundary as at present claimed that I object to. Where do you state your boundary is ? ILakarini te Wharehuia (Urewera) : At Ohiwa. Tamihana Huata (Ngatikahungunu) : I have dwelt at Ohiwa all my life, but never before heard of

G.—lA,

6

you in connection with that place. To my own certain knowledge you lived at Waikare, and lam of opinion that you had much better remain there. Let this boundary, to which you set up a claim— namely, MaDgapapa, Whataroa, and Erepeti —be relinquished by you. You will find that it will be judicious for you to do so. From the time the first spark was ignited upon that land by my ancestors down to the present moment it has never been extinguished. The fires are still burning upon the land. The TJrewera never ventured upon that land. Now that the sky is serene we behold their visages; but when the days were overcast, and obscurity prevailed, we beheld them not. Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngatikahunguuu) : I address myself to that portion of you, the TJrewera, who are remnants of Kahungimu and Buapani. You, the descendants of Buapani, are being effaced by the TJrewera. If you will but act sensibly the whole difficulty will be settled. If your claim is the same as that of, the TJrewera, we should like to hear what they have to say. I welcome you to my arms, the arms of the Government. Do not be led into the paths of error. The Government boundary is at Waikare ; mine is at Huiarau. You must not of your own accord become located upon this land. Come to me, and I will help, you to the utmost of my power for you, those whose right to land entitles them to be so dealt with. I pay no heed to the words that have fallen from Makarini to Wharehuia. His remarks apply to Waikare only. lie cannot enumerate his victories in connection with this land. All that I need now say is that it is better for your own sake to cast aside all opposition at present in the way of an amicable settlement of these boundaries In the Court the same success will attend us that we have elsewhere obtained. If lam to continue addressing you it will be necessary for me to partake of some intoxicant, so as to place myself on an equality with you, the TJrewera, who talk like drunken men. Winitana (Ngatikahungunu): I only require that you will restrict yourself to such matters as affect your own land, and I will do the same with mine. You never placed me upon the land. Tuhoe can make that assertion with some truth, but not you, for they have defeated us, but you never have. I am quite ignorant of the claims you attribute to all the ancestors named by you. Tuhoe (TJrewera) : Europeans, listen to what I have to say to you. lam the only one who should have the handling of this question of the boundaries of Mangapapa and Huiarau. Pukenui is right in what he says in support of his claim to the land. Without him Ngatikahuugunu must be silent with regard to AVaikare. I have to say of Hapimana's remarks about placing me upon the land, that it is altogether wrong. Toha (Ngatikahungunu) : State definitely what your claims are. * Winiata (TJrewera) : Others who are now present will do that. Saharulii te Kura (TJrewera) : The people of the Ure\yera have a claim to Putere and Waiau. Toha (Ngatikahungunu) : if you were a chief a fire would never have been lighted over the head of your ancestor. (An animated discussion here ensued between Eaharuhi and the speaker.) Your progenitor Taraparoa was food for my ancestor. Raharuhi te Kura (TJrewera) : Theife Natives are not to be listened to. " Taliuna mata roa," was a proverbial saying of my ancestors with regard to the Putere. You, Toha, asked me to change my position and take up your side, but that I will never do. I not only claim Putere, but my claim also extends to Euatahuna and the whole of Waikare. My claim is based on my descent from our ancestor Tamore. He established Waikaremoana and those other places mentioned. Then, again, Manono was another from whom I claim descent, and after him a place at Putere is called Tihi-o-Manono. Heremia te Whakatoko (Ngatikahungunu) : I pass your claim over altogether. Your statements are not in accordance with truth. Huiarau was always a portion of my ancestral boundaries. (The speaker here enumerated the different leading places on Ins boundary lines, giving Te Hoe, Haupatunga, and on to Mohaka, on the Mohaka side ; and also named Ngapukekore.) lam quite unacquainted with this boundary laid down by the TJrewera. No division of the land was ever occasioned. For many generations my ancestors have dwelt on this land, and still their fires burn upon it. A partitionment might have taken place of the food we obtained from the land, but no subdivision of the land ever took place in the manner you have described. Pukehori is the ancestor through whom I claim. Sori Wharerangi (TJrewera-Ngatiruapani) : You cannot lay claim through your descent from Pukehori: he was my ancestor. You may be an ancestral connection of mine, through Euapani perhaps, but you have really no power whatever over any portion of the land. Tolia HahuraJiu (Ngatikahungunu) : You- have no land at Mohaka, Putere, or Eotokakarangu. You may have a claim in connection with ours, but independently of us you have no claim. lam prepared to admit that Eaharuhi has a claim, but I will not concede the right of the whole of you to be admitted over that land. Eaharuhi is connected with both sides, but his strongest claim is on the side of the TJrewera. Makarini te Wharehuia (TJrewera) : You say my claim has lapsed —that it is cold. I contend for the very opposite. At Kakaonui we were defeated, and I was the only survivor, and from that time forward have I stayed at the Putere. Formerly our lands were not taken as the Government takes them. Listen then to me, you the people of Mohaka. Do not talk to me, Heremia, about the lands at Mohaka. lam fully aware of all circumstances in connection with them. Karaitiana Taungakore (Ngatikahungunu) : As Mohaka is mentioned, and as I come from that place, I stand up to represent it. I want to know who it is of you here assembled that lays claim to Mohaka. Have you a claim to Mohaka ? Have you a claim anywhere ? Iloani Wainolio (Ngatikahungunu) : Explain to me, Eaharuhi, about Kahu-o-te-Eangi, of whom you have made mention. BaliarvM te Kura (TJrewera) : He was met when travelling over theso boundaries by my ancestor. Iloani WainoJio (Ngatikahungunu) : At Te Waho-o-te-Eangi, an ancestor of mine, by name Kahu-o-te-Bangi, had a pole placed in the ground, and established a rahui. That fact you cannot gainsay. Another similar mark was placed at Hinepaka, where he met Kapu-a-Matotoru, an ancestor also, who at this period was making an excursion over the land with a view to fixing upon divisional lines. Ev-en too were presents made by those from whom I have descended to your ancestors, but tardy indeed has been the acknowledgment. I cannot consent to any claim you put forth to Mohaka, on the land of the Kahu-o-te-Eangi.

7

G.— lA

Hetaraka te Wliakaunu (Urewera) : We will see about Ngatihineuru and the Mohaka boundary. Our only reason in coming to this Court was to have the Waikare boundary defined, that is, Mangapapa, wh"ich I claim through conquest. We destroyed Urupani, and have ever since considered the land as ours. My house stands at Tukurangi. Himiona Maunu (Xgatikahungunu) : 1 cannot allow the claim of Wi Hautaruke (Urewera) to Ruakiture. Makarini said that he had extinguished my fires ou that land, and that by that act the mana reverted to him. He errs. We defeated them over and over again whenever they attacked us. Iliakara Kaimalca (Ngatikahungunu) : As you will persist in mentioning Mangapapa, I say that it belongs to me. I do not belong to Ruapani. You may have defeated Euapani, but not so with us. I own Omaihi, the Whakaumu, the Urumakaroa, Matakohai, and Tukurangi. Euapani was never there. He owned Tutaemaro. Confine yourself to Waikaremoana, and do not come beyond it. If I were to talk to you about ancestry, you would not understand me. You do not know the ancestors to whom I have referred. No -. the Urewera are not competent to trace their ancestral connection with the owners of this land. No, you are too ignorant of them. Hetaraka te Whakaunu (Urewera) : Amohauga was an ancestor who travelled towards the north of this island. He afterwards returned and annihilated your people. He then proceeded to that part of the country occupied by the Urewera, and gained possession of it. We lay claim to Mangapapa through ancestral connection with the original owners. Raphnana Tunupaura (Ngatikahungunu) : What ancestor of yours came to Mangapapa to lay down boundaries? It was Eakaipaka and others of my forefathers who fixed the boundaries, and through "whom in like manner my claim extends to Turnnga. Tama te Eangi was a forefather of mine, who portioned off the land. The outer boundary was at Uru-o-Makoro, a place far beyond Mangapapa. He then pursued his course towards the Waiau, and here he met Makoro. They fought: the result of which fight was that Tama te Eangi gained the battle and took the land. In continuing the prosecution of his travels over the country, he established landmarks — rahuis —wherever lie went, and. to this day many of them remain quite unobliterated. Now, I would ask you, the chiefs and people of the Urewera tribe, where have you marked the land in token of ownership indicative of your right ? It is only to-day that I have heard that a meeting-house of yours is upon the land. Tv Takangahau (Urewera) :In former times there was but little interest taken in the land. It yielded scarcely any produce, and very few were the inhabitants. My ancestor was the great progenitor of our race, and he too it was who turned his attention to the cultivation of the soil. It was in consequence of the perpetration of a murder that the practice of warfare became initiated among us. Then, the people occupying the land on the northern extremities of our boundary, the Waikato tribe, sought vengeance for the woman who was slain, and so matters progressed. One war brought on another, until we found ourselves embroiled with Ngatikahungunu. It was at Eahui-a-Mahca where the engagement took place. At one period of our history all the inhabitants of the Wairoa and Turanga were in the bondage of the Urewera. Tor a long space of time the Natives along the coast could be nowhere found, except in close proximity to the mouths of the rivers. They fled before us from the inland parts to the coast. They were vanquished from those very blocks to which they now lay claim. When we followed them up in their flight we found them, as I have already stated, at the river mouths. Waka (Ngatikahungunu) : We were always to be found in the interior where stood our homes, but you never approached us except by stealth. Tv Takangahau (Urewera) : The Papuni Block I claim through my ancestor Te Mihi. We defeated all the original occupants. Wherefore I claim the land, a claim based upon the right of conquest. Himiona Maunu (Ngatikahungunu) : You may have defeated the people, but you did not get the land. Makarini te Wharehuia (Urewera) : You have no claim at Huiarau. Our claim is through Amohanga. He made the Mangapapa our boundary line. When we restored peace Kahungunu left, but my people alone remained, from which it may be readily perceived that the land was my ancestors. If otherwise, why did Kahungunu depart ? I still urge my claim to Papuni. Wi Tipuna (Ngatikahungunu) : You never had the land. I will point out your correct genealogical descent. (Genealogy traced.) The ancestor TeMihi named by Tv Takangahau never had a claim to Papuni. Your ancestors defeated the occupants of the land, but their fires were never effectually extinguished. The people survived the inroads you made upon them, and never lost the management of the land. You are yourselves aware that when I sell any of the land you apply to me for a share in the proceeds, thereby tacitly admitting a right which you cannot subvert. As to Wi Hau Taruke, he had no authority for putting my name in the application that was made asking for the land to be adjudicated upon. The correct course would have been for him to obtain my sanction first. Apirana Teihana (Urewera). having traced his genealogy, stated that he claimed as a descendant of Ai-Ikiturangi. He continued : I inserted your name in the application, and did so because I considered it entitled to appear there, you along with myself being one of the owners of the land. Heremia te Whakaato (Ngatikahungunu): I have a claim to Huiarau, a fact I still adhere to. In Pukehori's time this boundary spoken of was never known. Karaitiana Takamoana (Ngatikahungunu) : Tamihana in his speech says something about the disputed boundary. I should like to be informed of where that boundary is. Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngatikahuugunu) : The Government defined their own boundaries when they confiscated the land. Karaitiana Takamoana (Ngatikahungunu) : When was that boundary laid down ? Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngatikahungunu) : We are not certain with regard to that question, but we are concerning the original confiscation. Not so with the second act of confiscation by the Government, for we were not aware of the extent of the land taken by the Government. It was only during the late visit of Sir Donald McLean that we discovered beyond doubt that the land was no longer ours.

G.—lA

8

Karaitiana Takamoana (Ngatikahungunu) : Now that I understand how the matter lies —that is, that the boundary of the confiscated land is to be defined by the Court—l have no further question to ask. (The speaker referred at length to a conversation that took place between himself and Tamihana during the Hatepe meeting.) Toha (Ngatikahungunu) : It was deemed advisable by the Government to retain the land in its own hands, on account of the feeling existing at the time in connection with the Urewera and Ngatikahungunu tribes. Mr. Locke: This land waa confiscated after the first fight at "Waikare. A meeting was held at the Hatepe for the purpose of coming to a final settlement of the interest of the Government Natives in the land confiscated. On the occasion of that meeting, payment was made to them in liquidation of their claims to the portion taken over by the Government. The Government then became the sole proprietor of that land, the whole of the Native title being completely extinguished. The remainder of the land, being that which is now under discussion, was returned, with the proviso that the principal chiefs among the Natives on the side of the Government be appointed to look after the land. On peace being made with the Urewera Natives they submitted a claim to this land in conjunction with Ngatikahungunu Natives, to whom the land had boeu returned. Had the Government acquired and retained this land before the restoration of peace with the Urewera, no claim of theirs would have ever been heard of to the land in question. The Government were evincing no small consideration for the Urewera Natives in sanctioning at all the investigation of the claim put forth by them, considering the grounds upon which they assert their right, being as they were at the time in rebellion when the laud was confiscated and dealt with. Karaitiana Takamoana (Ngatikahungunu) : Ton have afforded me clearly the information I desired. In Major Biggs's time, he had the management of this land. That was in the time of the Stafford Government, when Whitmore was in command of the colonial forces. The land was divided, a portion being set apart for the Government. The four blocks were not included in the land thus set apart. "Wherefore 1 am of opinion that the Government has no claim upon those particular lands. Evidently there has been a first division of the confiscated land which did not include the portion now claimed by the Urewera. Mr. Locke : The confiscated boundary does not go as far as Huiarau. It only extends to "Waikare. Karaitiana Takamoana (Ngatikahungunu) : The Government should not intimidate the Maoris in this manner, by telling them that they hold the land, and inducing them to lease it, when really the Government has no power to do so. Ngatikahunguuu were not aware that this land was confiscated. Mr. Locke: The Government is in no way intimidating the Natives. If such were the case, why should they have returned such a large quantity of land once confiscated ? And now, when the owners are desirous of disposing of it, the Govei'nment is endeavouring to amicably settle the long outstanding dispute between these contending tribes that have been for generations at war: at the same time completing the investigation of the title by the Native Land Court, in accordance with the law of the country, before concluding the purchase. We will now bring this meeting to a close, and lay the whole matter before the Native Land Court on Monday next, the 2nd of November, 1875. [Meeting dispersed.] Bj Authority : Geobge Didsbubt, GoTernment Printer, Wellington.—lB76. Prico 6d.]