8

G.—lA.

Hori Whareranqi (Urewera) : When our dispute touches upon the four blocks, we tread upon confiscated laud. When we talk of Iluiarau we trend towards the subject of ancestry. Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngatikahungunu) : I wish you to explain to me who really was the ancestor through whom you lay claim. You say, "My boundary is here—my boundary is there." If you say the confiscated land is your ancestor, on those grounds we will fight the question out with you. Again, should you rest your claim on the power of your forefathers, I would like you to inform us who those progenitors were. Te Reneti Pingari (Ngatikahungunu) : Confiscation has been surrounding me on all sides. All opportunities have passed away from me of proving upon what basis my claim rests. But I tell you that I am the owner of Waikare. None of you can advance a claim to that land in opposition to mine. Makarini te Wharehuia (TJrewera) : My ancestor through the right of conquest got possession of Mangapapa. He dwelt upon the land. Hence my having a voice in the matter. Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngatikahungunu) : "Well, so far you are right. Tour claim, you state, is on the principle of the right of conquest. But the idea of the Urewera assuming a right to the land on such grounds is simply ridiculous. The Urewera can never claim on those grounds. Not so with the Ngatikahungunu. They have very substantial claims through the right of conquest. To a certain extent I admit that you have some right to advance a claim, but nevertheless I ask you, Makarini, to show me on what basis you do so. My ancestors conquered beyond Mangapapa, and so have all the tribes of this island, as far as that goes. But my victories have been achieved by myself, and they are by far the most important of all the conquests. They include Mangapapa and stretch away to Huiarau. I myself have figured there, and so have my ancestors. Hori Wharerangi (Urewera) : It was I who conquered that land, and you were my toenga patu. By birth I claim the land. By might I claim it. In the days of our ancestors we were the principal people, and even down to the present period no one has gained the upper hand of us. Hence it is I fix my boundary at Mangapapa. Hapimana Tunupaura (Ngatikahungunu) : We defeated you in times gone by, and again at a more recent date. Tou cannot say you have ever done so to us. When your enemies pursued you we gave you shelter, and guarded you back to your homes. Tou cannot gainsay that. I took you back to Mangapapa. How then can you contend any longer that you were the conquerors, when we were the people who protected you when your enemies assailed you ? Hori Whareranqi (Urewera) : To-day we are not enemies. Once we were : still you cannot prove that you made me subservient to you. On my own land I have always been capable of defending myself. I have, on the contrary, reduced you to such a state that you were on more occasions than one a tanrjata of mine. This accords with my previous remark to the effect that you were my toenga patu. Tamihana Huata (Ngatikahungunu) : Explain to me the battles in which you gained victories over us. We are only aware of the predilection for thieving, in former times, when you were accustomed to sneak into our forests, and steal our pigeons, kakas, and other birds. Such indeed were the victories you gained. However, lam not desirous of continuing in this strain. Kerei te Ota (Ngatikahungunu) : If you, the Urewera, advance your claim as bearing on the right of conquest, I am fully prepared to cope with you on that point. Kereru te Pukenui (Urewera) : I. would rather refrain from speaking on this occasion at any great length. We will see what transpires in the Court. I have merely come to return the money which has been paid on account of the purchase of our land. We desire the line dividing the land of the Urewera from that of Ngatikahungunu being clearly laid down. I am against money being expended on account of the purchase of land beyond Mangapapa, for the land there belongs to me. I have no more to say at present. I may reserve any further remarks of mine until Igo into the Land Court, where I will reply at greater length to anything that will be here spoken of. Tamihana Huata (Ngatikahungunu) : Now, Mr. Locke, lam addressing my words to you. Tou advised us to settle this difficulty about the land question out of Court. I concurred with you in your advice. I am, however, informed that Kereru te Pukenui wants the matter discussed in the Court. To either course lam quite prepared to assent. He'knows the ground we tread upon, and so do I. They, the LTrewera, say that Ngatikahungunu who occupy the country towards the coast should be debarred from taking any action with reference to the matter in hand. They are willing to admit the right of those persons of Ngatikahungunu who are actually located on the land. And I contend that as we are all of one tribe we all have the same right. I will mention the boundaries from the time of Rakaipaka and Tapuae down to the present day. (Boundaries given.) Tiopirn Kaukau](N gatiknhnnguuu) : When the claims of Rakaipaka and Tapuae are discussed, Ngatikahungunu cannot remain silent. Our boundaries are like unto the roof of a house. It cannot be expected that the rain dropping from the eaves on one side, will return and fall from the eaves on the other side. Wi Mahuika (Aitanga Mahaki) : I was holding myself in readiness to enter upon the many questions pertaining to this difficulty, but, now that Pukenui says the matter is to be referred to the Native Land Court, it is needless for me to do so, and considering that no further discussion will take place. Mr. J. P. Hamlin : I wish to say a word because I initiated the subject with the Urewera. Several times I asked you to come and assemble together so that this matter might be talked over. For a considerable period no movement was made. At length a meeting was convened which took place at Te Kapu. Then it was deemed expedient to adjourn that meeting till some more fitting occasion, and now we meet here again, and assent to the proposals made. Kereru te Pukenui (Urewera) : I conduct my own affairs, and you, the Ngatikahungunu, can do the same as far as their own business is concerned. I am in favour of the question now under discussion being postponed, and as far as lam personally concerned will do so. That is all I have to say to Mr. Hamliu. I claim Putere, Waiau, and Mohaka. It is part of my inheritance. lam unacquainted with any one wRo can support a better claim. In the same manner do I claim Mangapapa up to Mangata-