MRBALLANCE AND THE NATIVES. IMPORTANT MEETINGS WITH THE NGAT1MANIAPOTO AND THE "KING." Probable End of the Native "Difficulty."

Waikato Times, Volume XXVI, Issue 2150, 20 April 1886, Page 4

MRBALLANCE AND THE NATIVES. IMPORTANT MEETINGS WITH THE NGATIMANIAPOTO AND THE "KING." Probable End of the Native "Difficulty."

The following fuller particulars of the . meeting Letween Mr Bailauce and the Ngatimaniipoto at Kopua on Wednesday will be read with interest: — ! Wahanu: welcomed Mr Ballance, and invited him iflti) the house. Theie they r»t mined sftfiie considerable time, until the ' other natives became somewhat impatient. Seats were at last sot outside, and the p.irty being seated, Wuhanui addressed the . Native Minister, Mr Wilkinson interpret* hig. Wahanui : I luve nothing more to say than' What I have already said to you. There are only a few of us present hare to* day. I with yon would remain or return to us on the 20th, when we shall have a large meeting, and talk over those things I proceeded to Wellington about. I ask you " to see about I>ur petition and other matten. If you will nob remain, I have nothiag more to say myself, but some of tho people here wish to speak to you. Mr John Orinsby, chairman of the Native Committee, then addressed the Native Minister at considerable length. He welcomed Mr Ballance there that day j m the representative of the Government, and Wi Pere and Major Rupata as visitors, wjp like them (the Native Committee) were working in the same boat for the good of 'tbVWaorii. He' would have been much ft Mr Ballance could have arranged to be present at-their meeting on the 20th. All their troubles were about land. In olden times the sword settled it ; now it ■ *tm the Land. Courts that had to settle the ■disputes, and the action of thai court brought more trouble than aver, not ,snly in this district, but in, all other*. At the meeting on the 20th they Were to decide what is to I bt done with their land*. Many of them would like ■hefr titles to remain as they were; as they received them from their ancestors; but they found it to be now impossible that things can remain in their old state. An . investigation into the ownership and title qLtheir foods must be made. They would ' like to investigate the title and settle it ' anfohgst themselves by the native committees, but found they had not the power to do so, and they were now asking thera'•elveii what they ought to do. He then proceeded as follows :— We do not wish to acf 'in any way antagonistic to tho Government. In all our difficulties we have laid i, then? before you, but find you can give us no remedy. We have given you roads apd -. land for the railway, but you have given us nothing in return, or very little, that I aware of. We, the Ngatiraaniopoto, * have endeavoured always to act with th« Government. We have not sent our complaints by representatives to England as some have done ; we have always laid our complaints before the Government of this country, as England says we should do, and we ask you now to look into things for us. I ask you to assist us in finding out some policy for this district. I maintain the troubles are caused by the Native Lands Court?. Judges are appointed who are totally ignorant of the Maori language. It is not , they who settle the titles, but others, interested Europeans, > who are i allayed to interfere. Money is also advanced before the lands are passed this court. This should not be. Europeans are interested in claims through their connection with native women. These things are sources of pain to us and should cease. I now refer to the railway line. Government were in a great hurry to get the land, and now the natives want to know when they are going to be paid for it. Another thing : Workmen employed on the railway •dine, afro desirous of taking up places qf rfeaiderice on native lands. I refer to Mr OBrien, the contractor. The law does not allow the native committee to give him a lease. I think it should do so. Aporo Taratutu also welcomed Mr Ballance. He also asked that the powers "" of the native committee be increased. He *' concluded by saying, "Let your works be right." Mr Ballance: I thank yon all for your salutations to me tin's day. It always gives -mepleasme to meet the Ngatimaniapoto at Kopua. I regret it is not possible for me to be present at your meeting on the 20th. I Was not aware nntil my arrival hero that such a meeting was to take place;- but I hope that you would excuse me, as the meeting of Parliament is fast approaching, and my duties require my presence in Wellington. Wahanui and Mr Ormiby can communicate with me there and let me know what takes place. I must thank the native committee for their assistance in settling disputes arising from the preliminary survey of the railway and arrangingjor the prospecting for gold. I would like to give far more extended powers to the committees, and in fact tried to do so in Parliament, but was prevented. I would like them to settle their laud titles amongst themselves. But you are well aware of tho * difficulty in consequence of the great Jealousy existing amongst yourselves. Government have to thank Ngatimaniapoto for many things. You agreed to give land for the railway one chain wide. If you remember I told you land would be required, outside that for stations, which would be paid for. Mr Orinsby sayi the' Chief ~ Judge can estimate the value of the land, and that the * committee should assist in forming an estimate of # its value. I will aoe into this, and if it can be done the committee shall co-operate to find its value. Mr Ormsby has referred to Tawhiao's mission to England, and the reply he received, to address the Parliament here, which you have always done. You acted rightly in so doing. England cannot interfere as between this Government and the natives. He also referred to judged adjudicating on *• their lands who do not understand the Maori language. I will take care that when a court Bits for this district that there ■ball be one at least who does understand -the language. The Treaty- of Waitangi mfcs the pre-emptive right ef the native lands to the Crown. Mr Ormsby objects to this, Yet Tawhiao and his people, a;e continually asking for it to be maintained. How would they like the Government atone to be the- purchasers of their' lands. That clause has been abandoned. Wahanui and I agree that a bill should be passed to sell ' the, lands /to the highest bidder, as ia the ,ca«e with the Crown lands, but the Government think that private dealing with lands should cease. Referring to money having been advanced on native lands before passing through the Land Court, I can say it is jjot, done. Government has done this before^how, and lost money by it, the morioy being paid to parties who proved not to be ownoru. As to the complaint about interested Europeans interfering with the Land Courts, I will take good care that no objectionable assessors or interpreters shall be allowed in any court held in this district. They shall be persons above suspicion. Ih regard to giving workmen a title to occupy lands near railway works. I cannot see how to give them a legal title. Their • ,W(prk cw .only a temporary one, and wme mutual arrangement should be come to, that for a certain sum the contractor could put-up a house without a legal title. Mr Ormsby says that the natives have given fond for roads and railways, but the Government have given nothing. I can tell you that from a European point of view, the railway itself i 3 a sufficient payment. Europeans would think their fortunes were mode if a line costing a million and a half were made through their lands. It is one of the great troubles of the Government, the Europeans continually asking for lines to be made. lam aware that natives look at this in a different light, but I hope they will soon realise the benefit by the increased value of their lands. I think I have now answered all the questions Mr Ormsby referred to. Mi Oriusby:— l admit you have answered me, but natives and Europeans do not look at tilings in the same light. >.W i Pere :— Salutations to you. I am only a visitor here, but have attended other meetings in various places. I will make some explanations about the Taupo block that has been passed through the court from my own knowledge. Pakohas and Maoris have told Te Henheu he would be a slave in Wihanui's hands if he did not get his lands put through the court. He heard this and it rankled in his heart, so ht applied for the court. I agree with you, that without further powers granted to, the. Native*Coinmittee they are useless. Native Land Courts are generally supported by those who wish to steal land. Np "court can be forced upon you. Mj Ballance :— My duty is to look to the benefit of both races. I see no reason for .the delay in npt paying for the land taken for the railway. In fact I have spoken to the Minister of Public Works to put the Act in force and settle the matter. There is only one difficulty in the matter, that is, U* find out the owners of the loud entitled to reccirg tho money.

If the Native Comruittoo will assist u» in this wo will bo RlacLof it. No person lias been appointed by Government to purchase or advance money on land before 'it hag been pasned through the court. No negonations are entered into until the owner* iro entitled to sell. I tried to get a Bill pissed la.it session to extend the powers of Native Committees, but could not do si; on iccount of the great pressure of t p^h'or nu-jineas, but I hope to do so noxt h'mijiotk One word about Taupo. I told Wnhanuj that the hajm NgntimaUknre had handed over their lands to Tawhiao. I pointed >ut to him tho danger of this, and he saw it. Afterwards I Jiaard that othotJTaupo •i.itives h.\d done so. I saw it wai getting tlaruiing. After, whau To Heuhau asked toraLind Court, I saw that it was th<| liast thing to do. Once the title of the, l.md was rued there was no fear of owners handing over their lands to Tawhiao. W| Pens h.is referred to propositions that Have been made, and pressure put on the Government to take possession of native lands; Major Atkinson and Mr Ormond would do tins, but the piesent Government have stuck to their position. All lands are to bo fairly bought, and a fair price paid for them to the natives when they have a clear title. That is the policy of the Government.- Do not believe the present Governt ment will not uphold the Treaty of Wai-j tangi. The natives were secured in thq possession of their lands, and we will up* hold the sovereignty of the Queen. The meeting waa then adjourned for refreshments, and Taonui arrived. On reassembling, Mr Orrasby again spoke 6n a former promise to give Native Committees greater powers. He vr*s sorry to hear that at a mooting at the Bay of Islands Mr Ballance had expressed himself a* not being in favour of giving the Maoris increased representation in Parliament. Mr Ballance at once denied this. Mr Ormsby would like, if it could be done, that a policeman be granted to ac£ under the Native Committee, so that he could look after many irregularities that took place. Spirits were said to 'w sold contrary to the law. The policeman could look after this. Taonui had wished to bo present at the late Land Court at Taupo to protect his interests there, but he had happened to be summonsed as a witness ill a libel case to bo heard in Auckland the same day. Taonui had obeyed the sumipons of the law and attended at Auckland, It was impossible for him to divide 'his body, so by not being present at Taupo he had lost his claim to his land bj not being present. He (Mr Ormsby) .thought this was a great wrong. Mr Balance I have heard of this. It was very unfortunate Taonui being subpoenaed the same day to town. At the same time I do not think it has done him any barm in regard to his land-ownership. When the land is individualised be can get his share. I hope when you get a Land Court for your district it will be near you. You are aware that the Native Minister has no control over the Native Land Courts. Mr Ballanoe >th«n referred to Maori Representation 0 in Parliament. He reminded them thai beside their special representatives they had many of them also votes for European members, and all could do this if they divided their lands and got Crown grants for them. He recommended them to do this. He would give Native Committees full power to settle all civil cases. If Native Committees assisted in valuing land taken for railway purposes, the money, he believed, would be placed under trustees until the owners were ascertained, Government allowing interest on it at 7\ per cent. Wahanui : I f hink it is 9£ per cent. ' Mr Ballance : I think I have gone over all the questions possible at this meeting. I am always to be communicated with 1 , and will answer anything sent to me at once. I thank you all for the attention and hospitality you have shewn us. Mr Ormsby : We, on our part, return the compliment to you for listening to us. We wish you a safe journey back. Mr BaDance then returned to Alexandra.