PARLIAMENT.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVI, Issue 3336, 3 November 1871, Page 3

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, November 2. The Speaker took the chair at half-past one o'clock. TE KOOTI. Mr GILLIES wished to put a question to tho Government without notice. There were rumors abroad with reference to the movements of Te Kooti, and a telegram had been received in Wellington to the following effect : — " The Hauhans report that Te Kooti has billed Captain Preece and five Arawas at Horoboro. He lost ono man himself, and escaped to Tokangamutu." He desired to know from the Native Minister whether there was any foundation for the rumor. Mr M'LEAN said he was glad the hon member had brought forward the matter contained in the telegram. He himself had received a communication with reference to the matter, and he could aßsuro tho hon member that the rumors stated by him were quite unreliable. The fact really was that Captain Preece, on tho day on which he was alleged to have been killed, was three hundred miles from the place stated in fehe telegram read, so that it must be obvious to the hon member that the rumor was groundless. P-~ LAND BBOK.KBS. Mr BATHGATE asked whether the Government would have any objection to have a return prepared forthwith, showing the names | of the land brokers licensed in Dunedin ; the names of the sureties ; and tho amounts of bonds in each case ? Last year a very serious inroad was made on a branch of the legal profession, but tho liberal minded members of that profession made no objection to tho passing of the Land Transfer Act, although they believed that a year or two should have been allowed to elapse before the act came into operation. Since then the Government have thought proper to open up the practioe to all and sundry, and even now tho profession did not complain, although their business had been injured by that proceeding ; but they did ask that the rule permitting persons to practise under the act should be rigidly enforced. A telegram which he had received yesterday Btatcd that a number of persons had been ap- j pointed brokers, and that their sureties were men of straw. Ifc was in order to remove fluch rumors that he had put the question. The profession had no fear that with fair care, and the knowledge possessed by them, they would ensure to themselves tho greater share of the transfer business ; but they desired that other land brokers should be compelled to comply with the conditions of the act. Mr FOX said he was glad the question had been asked, because it gave him aa opportunity of denying statements which had been made that the appointments of land brokers should not extend to lay agents. The Government had not made any such promise. Ifc was Bt&tecJ when tho act was passing through the House that the Government was not inclined to press the appointment of brokers immediately. Later in the session the question wus put in a pointed manner by the then member for the Selwyn, Mr Stevens, and by the Hon Mr Hall, who asked whether, if the public made any demonstration in favor of land brokers, the Government would be prepared to accede to the proposal, and he replied that they would most certainly do so if it were to the public interest to do so. Then the act was put into force, and for four or five months it appeared to have no effect at all, not a single deed being brought into the office. In Dunedin and Chrietchurch, where they expected a great amount of business to be transacted under the act, not a single one was registered, , but immediately after numerous petitions and applications came in from large bodies of gentlemen owning property, asking that laymen Bhould be appointed brokers. The Government then felt bound to carry out the wishes of those persons, and consequently land brokers were appointed wherever they could find the requisite security. The effect was magical. Applications for transfers under the act came pouring in in such numbers that tho Registrar reported that the fees at Dunedin were paying the expenses of tho working of the act, and at Christchuroh they went pretty well towards it, and that he saw a good prospect of the fees paying the whole expenses of working the act in the different divisions of the colony. He thought that was evidence that tho creation of these land brokers had proved a great succr ss, and that the Government were fully justified in what they had done in giving to laymen the right to become brokers, the office having conferred large public advantages and paid its own expenses. He thought it was rather incorrect to Bay that tho brokers had been appointed without finding security. In many cases the applications for appointment a» brokers had been suspended simply because the forms could not be filled up iu the regular ■way in the absence of the Registrar-General, bo that the hon member would observe that no laxity wus allowed. If he looked at, the act he would see that the matter complained of was a very trivial one. It was merely stated that the broker should conform to the requirements of the act. He was reully required to do nothing ; so that if the sureties were men of straw it would have no bad effect at all. MAORI DEEDS OF CESSION. TAIAROA asked the Native M.nister whether the Government objected to lay upon the table copies of all deeds of cession by the Maori owners of land in tho Middle and South Islands, to her Mujesty the Queen or the New Zealand Company ? Mr M'LEAN said the deeds referred to in every instance had been published ; at least, those of the New Zealand Company were published in a book which contained a narrutive of all deeds of the company, but he did not know that they had been translated into Maori. Several other deeds had been published, and the Government did not consider it necessary that those which have been already published Bhould be published aguin, but if tho hon member would mention any particular deed that he desired, if not published, the Government would have do objection to publish it. He might say that the reports of all deeds referring to the Middle Island have been compiled, and would be published in a took which would be accessible to members after the publication was completed. It would show every record, and all information connected with the Middle Island which the hon membor might require. Some of the deeds, referring to Canterbury and Otago, were already published in full'in the Blue Books. Mr ROLLESTON : Those referring to Port Levy and Port Cooper are not there. Mr M'LEAN was aware that some of them were not there, but the hon membor could have any particular deed he desired. UATIVE LANDS. TAIROA asked the Native Minister, ■whether one reason for the refusal to produce the Deeds of Cession of Lands in the Middle Island is the fear, based upon the opinion of the Attorney-Gonera], that the validity o£ eome of those deeds might be effectually conteßted by the original Maori owners, if asBißtod by legal advice ? He said ho supposed there was some fear on the part of the Government to produce the deeds. Mr M'LSAN said there was no fear whatever on the part of tho Government, but they objected to the publication of deeds the greater number of which had already been published. AN OLD GRIEVANCE. The SPEAKER announced that he had received Cm^Sage from the Legislative Council requearijgraihe attendance of the clerk of the Houbc^^F the purpose of being examined J»Mi' reference to his "stated" appointment +^ as clerk of Parliament. Mr HAXJG-HTON declined to accept the jnee&age as anything else than disrespectful to the Houae. It referred to the " stated" appointment of the clerk of Parliament, an ap. pointment which had been made by another authority which could not be interfered with. Mr F« »X Baid there was nothing disrespectful in the word objected to. In his interpretation it did not at all dispute the appointment ; it rather confirmed it. The word meant fixed and final, bo that he eaw nothing disrespectful in it,

The SPEAKER said he saw nothing objectionable in the message. The appointment had been made under nn authority which could not be interfered with, and he saw no reason why they should not assent to the requeßfc. The matter hud not yet arrived at a point of dispute ; when it did arrive ut such a stage the House would no doubt bo quite prepared to enter into any disputed point. The motion was then agreed to. WELLINGTON RECLAIMED LAN© BILL. The SPEAKER announced that he had received a message from the Legislative Council, stating that they declined to agree to the free conference on this bill without further notice. Mr BUNNY proposed that a free conferj ence should bo held, and that Messrs Hunter, Fitzherbert, and himself, should bo appointed managers. Motion agreed to. . VALIDATING ACT. Mr GISBORNE moved for leave to introduce ft bill intituled an Act to continue in operation certain provisions of an act of the General Assembly, validating certain Provincial acts and ordinances. Agreed to. REPRESENTATION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was committed. Its object is to amend the electoral boundaries, and several members objecting to the boundaries, as defined, the Chairman reported progress, progress in committee being impossible until further explanations were given. WAYS AND MEANS. Tho resolutions passed yesterday in com* mittee of Ways and Means were reported to the House and agreed to. Whereupon A BILL TO AMEND THE TARIFF, Based on the resolutions, was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. | MESSAGES FROM HIS EXCELLENCY. j The House went into committee to consider Messages Nos. 7 and 8 from his Excellency the Governor. Mr VOGEL explained that Message No. 8 contained clauses for introduction into the Public Worts Bill, recommending the making of branch lines and coal lines. He moved " that this committee recommends that leave be given to introduce such clauses into the Pubiio Works Bill, 1871, as are referred to in the Message under consideration." A difficulty having arisen as to the constitutional forms to be followed on the introduction of appropriation clauses, progress waa j reported. | Mr VOGEL then proposed that the committee should give leave to introduce tho bill contained in Message No 7 — the Wellington Debts Bill. | Mr GILLIES objected. The Government had not circulated the bill, and he should insist that it be read to the House. [Tho bill •was accordingly read by the Clerk of Committees.] Mr G. M'LEAN thought it; was not right that they Bhould have been asked to pass the firat reading of a bill of the kind without having it circulated. Now that it hud been read he saw that the bill was exactly the same bill which had been brought down to the House before. This was the third form in •which it had appeared before them, and he considered the hon member who had charge of the bill deserved great credit for his ingenuity in' endeavoring to convince the House that white was black and that black was white. He considered it was an attempt to introduce a wretched system of finance. The Province of Wellington was now ripe for being taken ovor, and it was the duty of the Government, instead of tugging away at this bill, to settle all its difficulties by assuming the , management of its affairs. Mr FITZHERBERT said he believed tho opinions of the hon member to have been offered in a genuine spirit, with a half moral half political sentiment, but he was yet very young in a knowledge of the proceedings of the House. In the language applied to little boys, he had a good deal more plum pudding to eat ; but the opposition of Mr Gillies and his feeble lieutenant, Mr Rolleston, was of quite another character. Those gentlemen had offered opposition of the highest kind of concentrated powers of faction; an Opposition which had excited in his mind the most supreme contempt. The member for Auckland City West had come out in the character which truly belonged to him, that of a venomous, factious opponent. Those were the kind of members who called themselves the Opposition— a name which they had degraded in the eyes of the House this session. They complained of the policy of tho Government and wished to substitute their own, and a precious policy that was. Whatever shortcomings the Government had, the shortcomings of the Opposition were ten times worse. Allusions having been made to tho Savings Bank funds, Mr Fitzborbert in explanation stated that the province had never misappropriated one farthing of those trust funds. They had acted strictly in accordance with law iu taking those funds and issuing debentures of tho province of Wellington instead. He had distinctly told the House that the province wished to bo relieved of tho care of these funds, not bocause there had been any misuse, but because he wished to bo relieved of the chance of misuse. Mr GILLIES knew by long experience what a capital actor the member for the Hutt was, and how much sincerity was to be attached to his vehemence. Ho had referred to the unusual course adopted by insisting that the bill should be read to tho House, but had he said anything of the unconstitutional course of attempting to force an important bill of this kind through the House without any attempt to make the House aware of its contents. Members could not fail to observe the number of forms in which it had been presented to tho House, but in whatever Protean shape it was presented, it was their duty to prevent the spoliation of the colony. They should endeavor to put a stop to any proceedings by which it was sought to render the colony liable for the debts of the province of Wellington. All the bitter invective of the member for the Hutt, which he had directed at tho Opposition, fell very tamely. If ho had been a momber of that Opposition of which he had spoken in such contemptible terms, they might have been open to the imputations heaped upon them, but the absence of tho hon member from their ranks entirely absolved them from Buch stigmas. Time would tell whether the opinions and the actions of the Opposition were approved. He cared not for the discourteous remarks of oehon member. Their aim had been and still w& , to uphold the financial bonor of the colony, and the people would yet be called upon to say whether they approved of the course followed by them. If their opposition to the financial ruin of the colony dograded them, of course they were degraded ; but that was a question which the people of the colony had yet to answer. If the Opposition were wrong, they were honestly and sincerely wrong, because their aotion was dictated by the belief that the measures being passed by the Gfwernment tended to the ruin of the colony, and not for its good. The resolution was then, as a matter of urgency, read a first and second time, and leave given to introduce THE WELLINGTON DEBTS BILL, Which was read a first time. Tho Houbo then went to tho consideration of THE RAILWAYS BILL. Mr GISBORNE went into a similar explanation to that given by Mr Vogel a day or two ago, to the effect that it would be better not to take a general discussion, but that tho proposals for the construction of each railway should bo discussed separately in committee. The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. CIVIL SEBVIOE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was committed. The explanation and discussion of the potions clauses, and the amendments proposed, occupied a considerable portion of the afternoon, but tho debateable matter waß of no iuterosfc to the general public. The bill was then reported to tho House and read a third time. OTAGO EDUCATION EESERVEB GRANTS BILL. The bill provides for the reservation of 1,700,000 acres of land for educational pur-

poses. Much opposition was offered by Mr | Webster and Mr Gillies, who considered that. | as it was contemplated that the General Government should take over and administer the laniJs of the colony for (he purpose of settlement, and for the carrying out of the great public works scheme, it was unadvisablo that such enormous reserves should be alienated, although Mr Gillies quite reoognisod that it was the gnmu of the provinces to do the General Government to as great an extent as possible in view of their lands being handed over. This they were doing to the extent of thirty-four acres for every man, woman, and child in the province. Mr Haughton opposed tho reservation of such a quantity of lund for the purpose of supporting denominational pducntion. (Oh, oh.) He repeated that it was to support denominationalistn of the very narrowest kind, and he shou'.d oppose the bill if he stood alone on the floor of the House. A motion to report progress at this stage was lost by a majority of 27 to 20. Mr Gillies took the opportunity of expressing his surprise at tho action of the Government in proceeding with t.be bill in tho fuce of a distinct; assurance on their part that if there was any opposition to the bill they would not go on with it, and instead of carrying out thut promise they woi'ouow forcing the measure in the face of very considerable opposition. Mr G. B. Parker said tho difficulty arose purelv from the circumstance that tho Government had consented to become the catspaw of a provincial party. He saw no justification for their taking up a measure which should have been introduced by no other than a private member. Mr Gisboene asked what he was to do. He had voted for reporting progress, and was blamed by those supporting the bill, and a majority of the House having decided that they should go on, he was blamed by the other side for doing so. Mr Stafford and Mr Bell said the Parliamentary course which should bo pursued by the Government wus, a promise having been given that it should be fulfilled, whether a mnjority of the Houso differed from them or not ; they should lead the House, not be led by it. Mr Shepherd proposed the introduction of a clause to the effect that all lands mentioned in the schedule shall be subject to the goldfield's laws in force within the colony. The clause was cairied. The bill was then reported to the House, and on the motion for tho third reading, Mr Haxjghton and Mr G. B. Parker protested against the extraordinary course of forcing a bill through against the rules of the House, which provided that amendments having been made, the third reading could not be taken on the same day. He knew several members who were absent who intended to oppose the bill most, strongly. The Speaker said it was usual at the end of the session that a bill should be read a third time on the representation of a member of the Government that it was a matter of urgency. The bill was then read a third time and passed. SAN FHANOI6CO SERVICE. Mr VOGEL announced that he thought at that late hour (eleven o'clock) he would be consulting the wishes of members if he were to propose the postponement of the debate on the San Francisco contract, and make it the first order for half-past seven o'clock on the following evening. He did not think it likely, if they wero to enter on the discussion that evening, that they would arrive at any result. By taking it at hulf-past seven on the following evening they could have a full discussion with a probability of arriving at a decision. This course was acquiesced in by the House, and the SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES Were gone into, the first item on which any discussion arose being the vote of £500 for the Inspector of Stores. Mr Gillies could j not understand why, evon if they must have a storekeeper, they should pay him £500 a year ; a " storekeeper " was not usually paid so high salary. But what necessity was there for a storekeeper at all ? He wa9 down as { storekeeper under the public works head. These public works, he supposed, were to bo carried on in different parts of the colony, and was this officer going to act as storekeeper in every portion of the colony. Mr Gisborne said he was not going to keep the stores ; he was going to inspect in the different parts of the colony. The Government knew that thou sands of pounds worth of stores had been wasted for want of inspection Formerly he was only dofonco storekeeper, but now he did tho double duty of attending also to the public works stores. Mr Gillies pointed out that private firms, having many branches throughout the colony, did not require inspectors to go round looking after their property ; those on the spot were supposed to bo capable of doing that. Mr Hunter said it was usual, in the case of banks, for instance, to have inspectors. Mr D. M'Lean and Captain M'Phebson knew from personal knowledge that the storekeeper had saved thousands of pounds by his supervision. Mr Swanson thought the fact of this gentleman, whoever he was, saving thousands of pounds, was a fine commentary on the conduct of those other gentlemen of tho civil service who, they had been told that night, were in the habit of sacrificing themselves for the benefit of the country. From the statements mado, it appeared that they had been sacrificing the interests of the country to fehe best of their ability. Then, again, it had been stated that this storekeeper had had the double duty thrust upon him of attending to the public works stores in additiou to his usual duties. If he could do this additional duty, what had he been doing before? He must have had jolly fine times of it. Ho hoped he Would nover be told again about the c'vil servants sacrificing their energies for the benefit of the colony. The vote was passed. Tho amount of £500 for the introduction of ealmon ova was struck out on tho motion of Mr Reeves. On the vote of £500 for the " New Zealand Justice of the Peace" some discussion took place with referenoe to the qualifications of the Justices of the Peace. Mr Gillies thought there should be some examination gone through previous to the appointment of those gentlemen. He knew that the recent appointments were not of a very creditable character. There was a resolution passed by the House that the recommendation of tho Superintendent should be taken iu such ease3, but recently justices bad been appointed without the slightest reference to the Superintendents of proviuces ; in fact in some cases the appointments had been made rather against their wishes. Mr Ceeighton said there was as much blame to be attached to the last as to the present Government on that head. On the proposal of the vote of £1,000 as part of the expense connected with MB VOGEL'S VISIT TO ENGLAND. Mr GILLIES proposed that the consideration of the vote should be delayed until a fuller House was present. He should like to have some explanation of how the amount was incurred. Mr FOX. said bo Lad hoped the government would have been spared the indelicacy of making an explanation on such a matter. When his hon colleague wont to England on his late mission there was a distinct understanding between himself and his colleagues that the whole of his expenses out of pocket were to bo borne by the Government j if; being also understood that he should take his family with him, and that their expenses should be paid. He was detained longer in America than he exported he would be, the journey being made under the most unfavorable circumstances. It could not be expected that a person in his position could live in a shabby manner, or that his duties could be performed without incurring a very considerable expense. When Mr Vogel returned to New Zealand he laid a statement of his expenses before his colleagues, and it was found that he had expended a sum of about £1400 in excess of the amount be was entitled to spend according to the ordinary allowances of a Cabinet Minister. Of this sum of £1400, about £400 lie (Mr Vogel) considered of a purely private nature, which he did not wish the Government to pay any part; of. The balance of £1000 had been expended in a bona fide way, as expenses incurred in the carrying out of his mission j not one farthing of the amount bad found its

way into his pockot. The Government, on looking into the matter of Mr Vogel's statement, agreed to the expenditure as set forth by him. The £400 he immediately recouped to the Government, and they at once concurred with the spirit and the loiter of the arraugemenfc by Mr Vogel that the £1,000 should be borne on the public estimates of the colony, and should be paid by the Government. They might, under the law, have paid Mr Vogel an amount of money as a charge for his expenses in raising Jtbe loan, and would have been justified in coming down to the House for an appropriation to meet it. But Mr Vogel refused to allow such a course to be adopted. He insisted that the matter should be laid before the House so as to have the opinion of mein> bera upon it, and the Governmeiat now asked the House to vote the expenditure. He would repeat the remark that not one shilling of the money went into Mr Vogel's pocket ; that it was not credited to him ; that he had not received one single sixpenco as bonuses for services on behalf of the colony ; that it was actually money expended in services connected with the work of the country. The Government did nob wish to take upon themselves to say that the money should be paid, and they now asked the House to pass the vote. Mr GILLIES said the Premier had spoken of ordinary allowances. Ho would like him to say what ordinary allowances meant, Mr FOX said by ordinary allowances he meant the same allowances as those paid to Mr Fitzherbert on the occasion of his visit to England — four guineas a day. A special allowanoe of £250 had been made to Mr Vogel on account of the additional expenses of the land journey through America. The vote was then carried on the voices, and after some Messages from the Legislative Council, announcing the passing of bills, had been read, The House adjourned at a quarter past one.