PARLIAMENT.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVI, Issue 3330, 27 October 1871, Page 2

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thtjiisday, October 26. The Steakre took tho chair at 3.30. BAILWAY BETWEEN WANGANUI AND TAKANAKI. Mr BRYCE asked the Colonial Sooretary whether the Government had received any proposals for the construction of a line of railway between Wanganui and Taranaki, payment to be taken in land at 20s per acre ; and if so, whether the Government entertain favorably such proposals ? Mr GISBORNE said papers already laid on the table of the House showed what were the proposals of the gentlemen named. The purport of their proposal was that they should be chiefly paid in land for the construction of the line. The Government had not entertained the proposal, because they had not yet decided that the railway should be made, because they had arranged that trams only should bo constructed iv many parts of tho country, and probably the line between Wanganui and Taranaki would b 9 included in those districts wore trams were to be erected. He mighb add that generally tho Government objected to payment in land for such works. PICTON AND BIiENHKIM RAILWAY. Mr EYES asked tho Minister for Public Works if the Government are in possession of information to satisfy them that the construction of the railway between Pieton and Blenheim will involve tho expenditure of a larger sum per mile than is authorised by the Public Works Act of last session ; and if so, if they will be prepared to recommend the House to make such further provision as may be necessary to carry out that work ? Mr GISBORNE said the Government were not yet in possession of any definite information on tho subject which would enable them to say positively whether it was probable that the construction of the line would exceed the sum authorised by the Assembly last year, but from other information received by the Government they considered there was a probability that the amount required would exceed the estimate, and in order to meet any deficiency that might arise they would ask the Assembly to vote a larger sum, not necessarily to be expended, but to have something in hand to meet in case the construction of the railway went beyond the amount asked for last year. THE BROGDEN CONTRACTS. The House went into committee further to consider the contract entered into between the Government and the Messrs Brogden. The Chairman having read the resolution before tho House : — " That the committee having before it tho two contracts of Messrs Brogden recommend that contract No 1 be not accepted, and also that the amendment " that contructs No. 1 and 2 ontered into by the Colonial Treasurer with the Messrs Brogden are highly detrimental to the interests of the oolowy, and all oontracts for the construction of railways under the Public Works Act should bo let by public tender, and that payment should not be made in land or guarantee but by cash only." Mr BATHGATE, whose speech wo cannot do justice to in this issue, was the first to address the comm'ttee. Mr REYNOLDS moved as an addition to the motion of tho Colonial Treasurer : — " And further recommends that the Government negotiate with the Messrs Brogden for the modification and extension of No. 2 contract, or the substitution of one in its place as nearly as possible to the following effect : — That Messrs Brogden and Sons construct such railways, authorised or to be authorised by the Assembly, as it may be agreed shall be offered to them, to the amount of £1,000,000, at prices to be agreed to between them and the Government, such prices being within the limits fixed by the legislature. Messrs Brogden and Sons to state the price at which they are willing to coustruct each railway, and the Government to be at liberty to refuse or accept tho offer. Payment to be made in debentures, bearing 5\ per cent interest, or in cash, at the option of the Government. In the event of tho Government and Messrs Brogden and Sons not being able to agree as to tho construction of railways under those provisoes, the Government or Messrs Brogden and Sons, on notice to that effect being given by either party, to be bound to carry out No. 2 contract." Mr C ALDER thought if tho addition were accepted it would really be setting aside the contract. This fixed the price, while contraot No 2 decided that it should be settled by arbitration. That was a direct contradiction. Mr WOOD saw no conflict at all. It merely got rid of the most objectionable portion of the contract, namely, that providing that tho payment should be decided by arbitration. By arbitration they would bo left to tho chapter of accidents, because in the case of dispute the contractor appointed an arbitrator, and the Government appointed another; then an umpire was appointed who might not know anything about what he had to decide. That was what he objected to ; they would never know what their railways were to cost. Mr J. E. BROWN objected to the amendment. If it were proposed that cash payments were to bo made then he should propose that the contracts should be thrown open to public competition. With a view of testing the opinion of the House he would propose the omission of tho words " or in cash." Mr YOGEL said as it was desirable that the Government should express an opinion on such an amendment, he would say at once that they were willing to accept the amendment. Mr SitEPIiERD objected to tho power proposed to be given to tho Government ; and Mr Wakkfiei-d insisted upon tho contracts being open to competition. Mr ROLLESTON said that the Goromment had, because he had asked for the production of tho Attorney-General's opinion, forced him into one of two positions, eithor that he wished to deal unfairly with the Messrs Brogden, or that he should bring down a want of confidence. He altogether objected to the amendment of the lion member for Dunodin, which proposed to double the liability under the contract. He should divide tho House upon it. Mr YOGEL was glad the hon member had stated his intention to divide the House, because then tho Government would soo who were and who were not in favor of tho construction of the railways. Ho did not wish it to be understood that tho question was looked upon as a party one by tho Government. Mr BUNNY said he was astoniahed at tho announcements made by tho Government. Last night they were told by the Premior that they would ni'ike the question a ministerial one, and now they were told that they did not look upon it as a party one. He hoped the Government would not give signs of such weakness. There was no doubt whatever that tho contract was not within tho powor of the Colonial Treasurer, but were tho Government to be in tho position of a parcel of clerks They should not be bound down by the law. They should come down boldly and say what they were prepared to do, and thero was a party in the House that would support them. Mr STAFFORD was not at all surprised at Mr Bunny's disrespect for the law ; that was no new fact ; but he was surprised that tho hon member for the Avon did not see through the "arrangement" by which the amendment was brought before tho Houso. It was well known that tho Govornmont intondod to got somo one to do it, and the only difficulty was who that member should be. Ho saw no objection to the letting of the contract to Messrs Brogden as well as to anybody else ; indeed ho saw advantages from tho presence of such gentlemen in the country. But ho did not see why we should not conatruot, our railways by small contracts as well as by large once. The contracts for the railways in Canterbury avid elsewhere in the colony were not failures, but ho saw that the proposal now made was tho only way out of the mess, beoause they were in a mess until some suoh proposal waß made. He should not vote with his friend the member for Avon. Mr YOGEL said the remarks of Mr Bunny were disingenuous and ungenerous. With

' regard to tho remarks of the member fo r Avon, ho hoped he would not press the amendment to a division, because it would only show what he did not desire to show, that the Government would be triumphant by a large majority. He wished to avoid anything of the kind, because it was not tho desire of the Government that tho discussion should assume any party form. The Government desired to accept suggestions from all parts of the House. Mr REID was sorry to hoar tho hon member for Timaru consent to the additional amount incurred under the contract with Messrs Brogden proposed by the amendment. Ho did not wish to make any party matter of it, but he hoped the hon member for Avon would press hia intention to divide the House. They had been told that the workmen wero to receive so much greater consideration under tho contract with Messrs Brogden, but that merely meant nothing at all. Was it to be supposed that Messrs Brogden cared anything for the workmen P As far as he had ever seen, tho object of investing capital was to obtain as good a return for it aa possible, and he did not suppose the Brogden's wore any great exception. There was no doubt that as soon the works wore to be started Messrs Brogden would sub-lot tha works. Members spoke as if we wore going to construct thousands of miles of railways, but the faot was we wero going to do nothing more than we could do ourselves. The Victorian Government commenced by letting their railway works in largo contracts, but they were now, after all their experience, coming back to the small contract system. He hoped the member for Avon would divide the House. Mr J. E. BROWN supported No 2 contract as it stood, and opposed the amendment proposed by Mr Reynolds. Mr G. M'LEAN was one who attached great importance to publicnuetings, buthe could not help seeing that the matter of the contracts had been placed before tho public at the meetings at Christchufch, Dunedin, and Wellington, in an unfair light. He looked upon the No. 2 contract as so very favorable to the colony that he could not understand how Messrs Brogden entered into ife, and if they had been induced to go into it under any misapprehension he would say release them from it and let the whole of your railways be thrown open to competition. He altogether objected to the making of such contracts in private. The House should have had the opportunity of ratifying them before they were made binding. He altogether objected to the arbitration principle contained in the contract. Mr FITZHERBERT did not intend to go into any disquisition on railways, but he could not help remarking upon the speech of the member for Dunedin (Mr Bathgate.) Tbat speech, while telling them tbat the contract was the finest thing in the world, went on to say that they should be very careful and cautious before entering upon it ; nor could he help remarking upon the conduct of the hon member for Timaru, whioh he thought highly creditable to him. That hon member had displayed all the characteristics of the statesman in emancipating himself from the trammels of party, and accepting the compromise, for it was nothing more than a compromise, of the hon member for Dunedin (Mr Reynolds). But be objected to that part of the amendment proposed by Mr Reynolds tbat they should be bound by the No. 2 contract. There was no doubt, aa had been pointed out, tbat the Colonial Treasurer had exceeded his powers and that neither No. 1 contract nor No. 2 was legally binding. But because the thing was not legally done, was that any ; reason why they should repudiate the contracts ? No. Whether legally done or not, the colony was committed, and the country was bound to support the action of its ambassadors. He was glad to know that the colony stood so high in the opinion of the moneyed j people of England, and it should be their ] duty to prove that repudiation formed no part I of the characteristics of Now Zealand. It i had been pointed out that the guarantee system was objectionable, but ho thought, under j certain restrictions, that system was the best for us, but he considered the arbitration system a bad one. The alternative of payment for tho works in debentures, bearing 5J- per cent,, or in cash, ho thought a power it was desirable the Government Bhould possess. Mr GISBORNE pointed out, referring to the remarks of Mr Bunny, that the Government had not budged one iota. The issues on which the Premier and tho Colonial Treasurer had expressed their ultimatum of the Government in different directions were not analogous. The Premier simply stated that if the member for Avon insisted on the opinion of tho Attorney-General being taken, the Government were willing to stake their fate upon that issue. While tho Colonial Treasurer had merely stated that as the question was not looked upon in the light of a party one, they would not look upon any result arrived as hostile. He could only say that tho workmen had been misled, and that the contract was likely to do as much good to the workmen of the colony as if the works had been taken up by colonial contractors He altogether denied that the action of the Colonial Treasurer in executing these contracts was ultra vires. Mr COLLINS did not like theso contracts from tho first, and he did not understand even yet why they should grant a monopoly to foreign capitalists; He knew that all his opposition would be useless, but he merely made theso few obserrationa for the sake of consistency. The rest of the debate, and Mr Vogel's reply, wo are com pelted to hold over. After all the amendments had been rejected on the voices, tho amendment of Mr Reynolds, by way of addition to tho motion of the Colonial Treasurer, was put, and tho following was the division list : — Ayes, 45— Messrs Bathgate, 8011, Brandon, Bunny, Canfcrell, Carrington, Clark, Curtis, Parnall, Fitzherbert, Fox, Gillies, Gisborne, Harrison, ITuughton, Henderson, Hunter, Johnston, Karslake, Katene, T. Kelly. W. Kelly, Kenny, Lightband, Macandrow, E. M'Glashan, D, M'Lean, M'Lood, M'Pherson, O'Neii], Ormond, Parata, C. Parker, Reeves, Reynolds, J. Shepherd, Stafford, Studholme, Steward, Taiaroa, Takamoana, Tribe, Yogel, Webster, White, Williamson, Wood. Noes, 15— Andrew, Bradshaw, J. C. Brown, J. E. Brown, Calder, Ingles, G. MT.ean, Munro, G. B. Parker, Peacock, Reid, Rolleston, T. L Shepherd, Thompson, Wakefield. Pairs — For, Poarce ; against, Co'lins,