HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. PARLIAMENT

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVI, Issue 3325, 21 October 1871, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

PARLIAMENT

Feiday, October 20. The Speakeb took the chair at half-past, two o'clock. NELSON GAS BILL. The amendments mado by tho Legislative Council in this bill were agreed to. PETITIONS. Mr Williamson presented a petition •with reference to the settlement of boundaries at the Thames. Mr Shepherd presented a petition from inhabitants of Mount Benger, in Otago, praying that the sale of tbo 50,000 acres in Otago be set aside. Mr Bhadsiiaw presented a petition from miners of Swilzers, Otago, praying for the prevention of the influx of Chinese. Mr J. C. Brown presented a petition from residents of Otngo against the aided clauses in the Education Bill. THE WESTLAND AWARD. Mr HARRISON asked tho Colonial Secretary whether, considering tho great change which has taken place in the method of dividing the provincial share of the consolidated revenue since the award was given under "The Canterbury and Westland Public Debt Apportionment Act, 1868," the Government will cause inquiry to bo made, with the view of recommending the Hnuae next session to reopen the award ? In moving the motion the hon member mentioned that when the county I*l Westland was separated from the province ■ of Canterbury tho debts were divided between the two places, according to the Customs' revenue raised in each. That was found to press very hard on Westlaud, as in reality it ■ meant that Westland should contribute more than one-half of the debts of tho province of Canterbury. Then the House was asked to consent to arbitration, and tho debt was referred to arbitrators, who, not being ablo^ to agree, the award was made by an umpire. That award was made upon the then existing circumstances of the colony, and almost immediately, in the following year, tho new system of consolidating the debts of tho provinces ■waß brought into operation, the effect of which •was to reduce the revenue of Westland and to increase her burden. As tho matter now Btood the whole of the revenue was absorbed in paying the debts of the province of Canterbury. He hoped the Government would have no objection to make inquiry from the umpire and ascertain whether, in his opinion, under the altered circumstances brought about by the consolidation of the revenue, be does not consider it desirable to reopen the award. Mr GISBORNE eaid tho essence of the award was its finality. It would never do for the Government to reopen an award bo as to inquire whether it should not be gone into again. There were other provinces in which the same case vould arise, and the whole thing would hare to be opened again. Ho did not see how they were to reopen the award ; it would not be an advisable course. NATIVE REPRESENTATION IN PROVINCIAL COUNCILS. TAIAROA asked tho Native Minister, if the Government would be prepared next session to bring in a bill to enable the native race to be represented in the several Provincial Councils of the colony ? He would like the Native Minister to explain how it was that Maoris had not hitherto been represented in Provincial Councils. Ho hud seen an act of the General Assembly in which it was Btipulated that Maori representatives should have seats. Mr M'LEAN said there was an act in existence in •whiclrifc was laid down that Maori members should sit in every Provincial Council. It rested entirely with the Superintendents of provinces whether they should have seats or not, because it was in their power to call one Maori member to a seat in the Council. CASE 03? LUNDOX AND WniTAKER, Mr ROLLESTON moved that copies of all judgments of the Native Land Court affecting any lands referred to in the petition of Messrs Lundon and Whitaker, not previously laid on the table, be laid on the table, and printed. Agreed ,to. THIRD READINGS. The Wellington City Reserves Bill, tho Masterton and Greytown Lands Management Bill, tho Imprisonment for Debt Abolition Bill, and the Oamaru Dock Trust Borrowing Bill, were read a third and pa6Bed. WELLINGTON RECLAIMED LAND BILL. r Mr BUNNY moved that the amendments made by the Legislative Council be disagreed to. The first amendment pvoposed that the bill was not to vest in the Superintendent the block of land which hnd been reserved for provincial buildings until the payment of a certain sum of money. A second amendment cut out that portion of the act which enabled the Superintendent to mortgage that land. Mr Stafford did not quite agree with tho motion make by Mr Bunny, because he thought it quite possiblo that the Legislative Council had removed from the bill its most objectionable feature. Mr Reynolds proposed tho postponement of the consideration of the amendments. Mr Gillies thought, with Mr Stafford, that the amendments were very desirable ones. Mr Fitzhebbebt objected to the postponement. He denied that the object of tho bill as it stood permitted him to sell the land. By adopting tho suggestion offered, the House would be stultifying itßelf by consenting to alter the provisions of a bill which had passed through more than the usual rigor of the ordinary forms. The buildings the Provincial Government were about to erect; were to accommodate the officers of tbo Provincial Government aud for the holding of the council sittings as well us to provide some accommodation to General Government officers. The motion that the amendment be disagreed to was then put and carried, Mesßra Fitzherbert, Huntor, and Bunny being appointed managers to draw up reasons, THE BROGDEN DEBATE. Mr YOGEL said he had announced yesterday the exact course the Government would take with reference to the Brogden contracts. Afc that time the Government had an appointment with Mr Brogden, who had agreed to call on them at half-past five in tho evening. Inconsequence of his (MrVogel) making that statement, Mr Brogden sent up a note saying that the time was too short, and it was only within the laßt five minutes that he hnd received that communication. Hon members would see that every consideration was duo to a gentleman who had come bo long a distance as Mr Brogden had, and the Government could not do less than advise him to take a day or two to consider tho circumstances surrounding the proposals before they were submitted to the House. Therefore, the Government would not be able to explain before (Tuesday next the course proposed to be taken •with reference to the Brogden contract. PUBLIC REVENUE BILL. Mr YOGEL, in moving the second reading of this bill, said very few bills had so rough a time as this one had had. Tho present stage was generally the time bills were emancipated from their infancy, but this one had undergone all the dangers of a Tory rough handling at an unusuully early stage in its existence ; it was, therefore, only necessary to explain that the bill had the double purpose of enabling the deficiency bills to be increased from £60,000 to £100,000, and to enable tho system to bo carried out -which the Government proposed to adopt in the financial statement, of making what have been known as provincial charges charges upon the colonial revenue. That was, generally, the double purpose of the bill. There waß also a clause providing . tihat in the event of the death or resignation of the Controller it should be competent for the Government to combine the office with that of Auditor-General. That clause bad been introduced from no disrespect to the Controller, and with no view on the part of tho Government to bring prossure to bear upon him with i\ view to force him to resign, bufc it was within tho knowledge of tJjo Government that the original intention in the passing of the act was that the Controller should also be Auditor-General. A eubso-

quent Government altered that intention, and made it a distinct office. At the very timo that that course was being adopted in this colony, the plan was being reversed in England by a bill which provided that when the office of Controller was vacant the duties should be transferred to tho Audit Board. Tho Government believed that the functions could be performed by the Auditor-General without any detriment to tho public service. Indeed, they wero rather under tho impression that by throwing the responsibility upon the Auditor- General, the plan would eventuate in their having a much more efficient and a much better system than the present. This was only one stage towards n complete system of supervision. It would bo a considerable saving, also; as whenever the office became vacant the duties would bo transferred to the Auditor General. With resoect to the provision for enabling the deficiency bills to be increased from £60,000 to £100,000, he had to say that, in the opinion of the Government, this course was absolutely necessary. It was all very well for hon members, to get up and rail against the House 'for assisting the Government to carry out the business of the country. The Government had had an immense difficulty this year lo avoid increased taxation ; at any rate to confine that increase to the extent of imposing a tax on coveala and a slight increase in the stamp duties. Any hon member who went to tho trouble of going through the proposals would see that they were brought down to a very fine point with tho view of making all ends meet during tho year. Thi3 increased power of coming and going wus very desirous unless it was the wish of the House that there should bo a permanent burden oi taxation or thut an increase on the burden of tbo colony should be imposed. The Government were anxious that such a course should not bo adopted. If the Houso aided tho Government to tide over this difficulty, a difficulty they must all expect at a time when the effeots of the initiation of tho public works policy were about to be felt, when all the energies of the country were at their greatest period of trial, they would not have to wait long to see that there would be .igain that elasticity in the revenue whinh would bring about a feeling that they had not unduly increased the permanent burdens of the colony in the shape of unnecessary loans or unnecessary taxation. Ho had thrown upon tho members tho onus of accepting tins bill, or ofthowing the Government some other means of carrying on the government of the country. This power of issuing deficiency bills was not so largo as it appeared to be, because they were indebted lo the provinces and wero always more or less short of revenue from tho different parts of the colony.

Mr STAFFORD said the explanation or apology of tho Colonial Treasurer amounted to this : that bo virtually admitted that tho Government intended to spend more money than tho revenue of the country would cover. His statement virtually admitted that the Government were perfectly arvare that tho revenue that would come in during tho year would not be sufficient to meet the expenditure which they contemplated, and then he proposed that thoEe who objected to the course proposed should suggest some other mode by which the requirements of the country should be met. They did not go on as this Government had done, exceeding its revenuo and borrowing money only to pay its existing loans, lhat was the course of this Government. They came down and enid the House must give it this power j they must huve power to carry on their present course. Ho had no doubt the Government would get that power ; he had no doubt whatever after tho divisions that had taken place. He was pre pared to show that such a system was thoroughly ruinous and pernicious With such a majority he was aghast at the hon gentleman's moderation. As Warren Hastings said on his impeachment before the House of Commons, " When he considered that ho had tho whole of tho dominions of India at his disposal, he was aghast at his moderation." He was surprised that the hon gentleman the Colonial Treasurer did not ask for ha'f-a-million ; ho was sure he would have tho same majority if he wero to ask the House to vote that amount. Every Government had the power to borrow to the amount of £60,000, and it was not till 18*39 thafc the power was exercised, when the war broke out on tho West Coast, and tho power was exercised then only to furnish funds to suppress the war. But then there was a. Government in office who did not believe that the policy of the country was to spend its revenue in the reckless manner of the present. If the representatives of the people thought the course proposed by the present Government tho proper course, let thorn be answerable for it. If the people of the country did not know what the policy of tho Government meant now they would know what it meant in a few years ; those who could not leave the country — who have their property and interests fixed in it — would discover what it meant; they would have to know what it meant when they found they could not get away. Mr Reid, Mr Thomson, and Mr Caldee followed on the same side, Mr Gisbobne and Mr M'Leod speaking for the Government.

Mr M'LEAN said the hon member had dealt with the Government rather unfairly. What the Government had endeavored to do was to meet a unanimous desire on the part of the people and their representatives to open out a great scheme which would meet their wishes? Had not the Government done that ? Had they not entered v pon emigration schemes ? Had they not entered upou great works which no ono would doubt would be of the greatest good to the country ? He did not think much of the captious opposition offered to them. Ho had heard members say that they desired to see a colonising policy ; even the member for Timaru himself had ,'said that the policy of the Government had been filched from him. But when he had the opportunity of carrying out those works why did he not do so ? The Goternment of the day did not intend to follow any do-nothing policy. They would endeavor to meet what they knew to be the desire of tho country, namely, that the country should bo opened up by colonising means oi every description.

Mr Macandee'W and Mr M'Gilliveax followed in the same lino of argument.

Mr FITZHERBERT said the bill had no reference to the scheme whatever. It waß a deficiency bill. Tho Government would have to meet its engagements, and how were they to do it ? Wus tho House to delight in tying tho Government down to difficulties ? Were they to go to banks, and ask for accommodation ? That he held to be a most objectionable and injurious course; he hoped they would not have recourse to that kind of temporary expedient. Tho fact was, it had been found that the margin of £60,000 allowed to tho Government was not sufficient. He knew that from experience, and he would vole for the giving of the £100,000, which he thought not too great a latitude for any Government.

Mr ROLLESTON eaid Ministers seemed <o think it justifiable to throw money broadcast in order to create revenue ; to borrow money to pay interest on their debts. He could only say that the whole scheme of the Government would be to depopulate and demoralise the people of the country. Mr WHITE was not quite prepared to cay whether the policy of the Government was a colonising one or not, but ho could say that the effect of the policy would be towards ft decolonising effect. He knew that its effect, bo far as it had gone, had been to unsettle the majority of the people in the district from which he came. Ho should oppose the bill, because he thought the £60,000 a margin quite sufficient to work upon. It had been found to be so in times past, and why should ib not bo so now ? There was now a grave feoling of doubfc arising in the public mind as to what the ultimate effect of this policy would bo. No doubt tho Government had a vory powerful majority, aud would would carry this or any other measure, but unless they modified their proposals before next year they would find that that majority would be materi-

ally reduced. A laissezfaire policy would bo far preforablo to the injurious measures which they wero introducing. Mr J. E. BROWN would only make a few romarks upon what had been said by Mr Rolleston, who seemed so oblivious to tho progress of the country, caused by tho measure? of tho Government, that he quite deopaired of his ever becoming a useful administrator. The hon member was quite impracticable. Ho combated the idea that the Opposition represented the most important part of the taxpayers of the country. Ho ventured to say that tho members of the House supporting the Government represented more of the property of the country than did the Opposition. Ho was very much pained to hear a remark of the hon member for Timaru, " that if the Government wished to borrow half a million they would find members in tho House to support them." (Hear, hear.) Ho denied it. Ho was propared to say ut onse that ho would oppose any measure for borrowing even so much as £200,000. Then it had been euid that tho Government had tho support of a great many members of tbo House who expected expenditure of public money in their own district. He knew that the province of Canterbury was receiving leas expenditure than any province in the colony, and vet twelve of the members of that province were supporting tho Government ; so that thot was not the cause of their adhesion.

M.i PEARCE wished to know whether tho Colonial Treasurer would be willing to withdraw the clause relating to the Controller if it woro not essential to the bill ?

Mr YOGEL said if it wero tho wiah of the House that the clause should be withdrawn he would not object ; il was not essential. The clause had been inserted to enable the Government to amulgnmute the offices of Controller und Auditor when the first office became vacant. If tho clause were not passed with the bill the Government would be compelled to fill the office again. The Government would, in tho event ot any suitable vacancy occurring, offer it to the gentlemen at present holding the Controllerehip. There was one point he wished particularly to go forth, and that was, that thero wus not tho smallest intention to put a slight upon tho controller. The bill was then read a second time. INSOLVENCY BILL.

This bill was transmitted from tho Legislative Council, and read a first time, the second reading being ordered for Tuesday.

PAYMENTS TO PEOA'INCES BILL.

Mr YOGEL, before this bill was committed, said it had been represented to the Government that Bomo of the provinces would be placed in a serious difficulty, on account of having entered into engagements, and ho had to make a proposal which he hoped the House would agree with. Tho proposal was with reference to tho £50,000 which was to bo set apart, for road boards ; that at the request of the Superintendent the Government might agree that instead of the amount coming to the province being divided amongst the roud boards, it might bo devoted to Borne permanent work which tho Provincial Government might be constructing ; say upon a road being constructed by a province, tho Superintendent and the Minister of Public Wo: ks might agree to secure that the money should be expended on some such public works. The effect would be to relieve the provinces and enable them to fulfil their promises and carry on any works which had been engaged in. He thought that waa a proposal which would be accepted by members generally. It would moot a difficulty without the undesirable feature of being brought about by any sudden change.

Mr SHEPHERD (the Houso having gone into committee) a?ked the Government whether they intended to discontinue the inland postal charges as a provincial charge.

Mr YOGEL said the Government did not see their way to alter tho charges. The course which they thought it best to adopt was to ask the House to adopt them as a provincial charge. He wished tho House to sanction the arrangement made this year, and next year they would make it a colonial charge. Mr CARHINGTON asked why there was a difference in the capitation allowance for Taranaki and that for Hawke's Bay. Ho saw that the population was about the same in each province.

Mr YOGEL said the whole amount to which Taranaki was entitled would not reach the province through the provincial cheefc, but would none the less surely through the colonial chest.

Mr REYNOLDS made a proposition for omitting the clause mnking special allowances to the province?, which was lost.

Tho bill was then reported lo the House. WAYS AND MEANS.

Mr STAFFORD, before the Houso went into committee of ways and means, proposed the Jfollowing amendment to the order of the day : — " That, having regard to the existing position ot the country, this House is of opinion that the aggregate tuxation of tho people of New Zealand should not be increased, but that a rigid economy should be practised in tho administration of tho Government, so as to insure that tho expenditure for the ordinary services of the year should not exceed amount of the ordinary revenues of tho year." Ho merely moved this amendment to place on record his opinion of the systoin of playing at finance in which the Government was at present indulging.

Mr YOGEL said he had a right to appeal to the sympathies of members against these motions. At the early part of the session they had many of these resolutions, on which a very definite opinion had been expressed by tho House. They must all remember when an Opposition was formed it was announced that the hon member member for Timaru was going to deliver an elaborate speech. All the surroundings of the House were frequented during the day by persons on tho alert, tho gallaries of the Houso were crowded, members were on the tiptoe of expectation, the Government were going to be vanquished, and what did it all end in P The hon member " ended without making a resolution !" Tho Opposition seemed to have one point, and that was this, that they should devote themselves to prolonging the business of the session. (Hear, hear).

Mr T. KELLY moved as an amendment, " That having regard to tho existing position of the country, this House is of opinion that the tuxation is unfairly levied on tho community, and considering the burthen which the protection of property inflicts upon tho country it is only fair and reasonable that it should contribute to the revenue, and that during the recesß the Government should consider the subject with the view of ascertaining tho desirability of submitting to tho Legislature a proposal to revise the tariff, co as to impose a property and income tax." The SPEAKER ruled that the portion of the amendment relating to the property and income tax could not be put. Mr WOOD supported the resolution of the hon member for Timaru. It was rather remarkablo that whenever a motion was made from the Opposition side of tho House they wero feold that they were wasting tho time of the Houso. Last evening they wore compelled to listen to a dreary debate of several hours on a subject of no importance whatever, and the Government said not a word. He morely montioned the fact to provohow earnest tho Government wero in their endeavors to save tho time of the House. The idea of wasting the time of the House suggested itself only when motions came from a particular section.

Mr GILLIES said it came very badly from the Colonial Treasurer to accuse the Opposition of wasting tho time of tho House. If tho hon gentleman would tako tho trouble to go through Hansard with a two-foot rule, he would find that the speeches of the Opposition were nothing as compared with those of tho Government and their supporters.

Mr YOG-EL : They are much more numerous. (Laughter.) Mr GILLIES : Yes, but they haven't a corresponding amount of good sense. Ho cumo there to do ■what ho could for the benefit of the country, and it was very unfair of the Government ta attempt to put down a minority. Whether the Ministry agreed -with the

amendment of the hon member for Timaru or not, he fully believed that tho country would agree with it. The Colonial Treasurer had told them in tho financial statement that they should equalise their expenditure with their revenue, and tho only way to do that was to reduce their expenditure ; but had they done that ? It was the duty of tho Government to lead the House in the matter of reduction ; but had they done so ? The House was not so much to blame as tho Government for their want of retrenchment. Tbere was scarcely a bill that came before thorn that did not proposo some fresh expenditure. Mr FOX thanked the hon member for his fatherly lecture in telling the House that it had been the Government and not tho Opposition that were to blame. Tho hon member had referred to his speecb on the Licensing Bill, and snid that that wns wasting the time of the House ; he could only say that he was wasting tho time of the House at tho request of 12,000 people. He only wished, though he said it himself, that the time of the House were wasted in a similar way more often. After all the blowing of trumpots they had had from the other side, such as the weak inflated speech they had heard from tho leader of the Opposition, and on which occasion he " ended without making a resolution," he considered they had wasted a great deal of time. He again alluded to the waste of eight days in the last three weeks, which was clearly attributable to those who now formed tho Opposition. Mr Wakefield, Mr Inglt3, and Mr Reid apoko on the Opposition side, ono point of Mr Reid's being that he hoped the Board of Works would not, as was proposed by the Government, hftvo in their discretion the taking and disposal of lands for settlement under the public works regulations. He hoped that wns a function that would be retained in tho hands of the House. The Government had passed tl.eir bill by which they proposed to increase their deficiency bills from £60,000 to £100,000 every year, and if the amount were increased to £200,000 they would Gud necessities for the means he had not the slightest doubt. Ho felt convinced that tho proposals for taxation would not meet the views" of tho people ; the one idea of tho penny tox would ontail an amount of trouble and annoyance that would be intolerable. Mr Oaldee delivered a good speeoh on behalf of the Opposition. On division, tho amendment of Mr Stafford was negatived, the numbers being — Ayes, 22 ;

noes, 40. The amendment of Mr Kelly was also negatived, and tho motion for going into committee was then put and agreed to. The following were the items passed :—Admission and appointment, or grant by any writing to or of any office, place, or employment under tho Genoral Government of New Zealand or tinder any Provincial Government, or the County Council of the County of Westland, or in any Municipal Corporation established under the Municipal Corporations Act, 1870, or under an act or ordinance? mentioned or referred to in the first schedule of tho said acts, or any acts amending or continuing tho same where the annual salary or emoluments shall exceed £100 and shall not exceed £200, 1 per cent ; exceed £200 and shall not exceed £500, 2 per cent ; exceed £500, 3 per cent ; exemptions—(l.) Admiusion proceeding upon a duly stamped appointmentor grant. (2.) Periodical readmission or appointment to any office, or employment of any person who has been onceduly admitted to such office oremployraent. Annual license to bo taken out by all Joint Stock Companies and all incorporated companies exclusive of Mining and Flax Companies carrying on business in New Zealand whether incorporated in this colony or elsewhere, ono shilling per cent on nominal capital, but not to exceed a maximum of £200 in respect of any one certificate of incorporation.

The House adjourned at a quarter to two o'clock, until half-past seven on Tuesday ovening.