PARLIAMENT.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVI, Issue 3316, 11 October 1871, Page 3

P A R LI A MENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, October 10. The Speaker took the chair at half-past i two o'clock. PAPERS Mr Q-ISBOENE laid on the table further papers relating to the construction of railroads, and other papers and returns. THE MANAWATTT. Mr COLLINS asked the Premier whether the whole of the purchase money for the Manawatu block, viz, £25,000, has been paid to tboae natives who were adjudged by the j Native Lands Court to be the rightful owners thereof? The hon member said his renson for asking the question -was because he thought it advisable that the House should know in what condition the affairs conneetod with the Manavraiu block were at the present time ; •whether those natives who were offering opposition had not really a grievance, or some good cause for offering opposition to the survey. He had no desire to harrasa the Government by putting his question : he did so because he thought it necessary that the House should have the information for which he asked. If it turned out that the natives had been treated ' fairly by the Government he would be much gratified ; but if, on the oher hand, it was found that they had just cauße for complaint, it was necessary that steps should bo taken to rectify the matter. Mr FOX said when Sir Walter Raleigh was c little boy he was in the habit of asking his mamma very difficult questions on all subjects, and his mamma always answered him "Read and you will know." He would answer the hon member in the same way. The whole of the information for which he asked was on the table of the House, and had been for years, so that if the hon. member had taken tho trouble to read those papers there would have been no necessity to put the question. However, as he had preferred to put the question on the notice paper he -would give a brief answer, •which would make the whole matter clear to hon members. Tho question put was, whether the whole of the purohaso money for the Manawatu Block had been paid to those natives who were adjudged by tho Native Lands Court to be the rightful owners thereof? He would answer, "No; the money has not been bo paid." The reason was this : The Native Lands Court declared three sections of natives to be the rightful owners of the block. These three sections he ■would describe as A., B, C. Sections A and B sold their land to the Government for the sum of £25,000, which was then and there paid to the Commissioner. Section C never Bold their interest in the block ; they retain that interest at tho present time, and therefore had never been paid any money for land which had never been sold. MOEBAKI JETTY. Mr STEWARD asked the Minister of Public Works, "whether tho Government propose, in view of the early construction of tho Waitaki-Moeraki Railway, to accede to the prayer of the petition of residents at Moeraki, asking that the Government will take over tho materials imported by the Provincial Government for a jetty at tho port of Moeraki, with a view to the utilisation of tho same in the construction of such jetty in connection with the said railway?" Mr GISBORNE said it waß sometimes difficult to draw a distinction between what were railway works and what were harbor works. In the construction of railways the Government muet take care not to be led into the construction of harbor works also, because if they did so they would be constructing works not contemplated by the Act. The Moeraki jetty was one which might be considered partly aB a railway work and partly aB a harbor work. Ho would ask the Engineer-in-Chief, Mr Carrutherß, to make a report on the subject, and when the Government were

put in possession of that report it would be immediately laid on the table. TOWNSHir OF OTEPOPO, OTAGO. Mr STEWARD withdrew a motion asking the Postmaßter-General, in accordance with a petition from a number of residents in and near tho township of Otepopo, in the province ofOtngo, tho Governmons propose to open a money order and telegraph office in the said township. TREASURY BIIXS BILI.. The resolution of the committee of tho whole on thi3 bill was agreed to, and leavo given to introduce tho bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. A PERSONAL MATTER. Mr GI3BORNE, before proceeding further with the bueiness of the House, would like to make a few observations with reference to the allusions made by the hon member for tho Punstan, Mr T. L. Shepherd, to tho action of Mr Beetham, the returning officer for tho Wakatipu district. The House, lie thought, would feel, when charges wero made against an officer of the Government, that those charges -should bo definite in thoir character, so that, in accordance with principles of justice, the accused should know what he was charged with, and should have an opportunity of refuting it. Since the remarks to which he had referred were made by the hon member, he had received a telegram from the mayor, councillors, and others of Wakatipu, to tho following effect :— " Wo most emphatically deny the charges made against Mr Beethasn of having acted with partiality during the election. Mr Beetham always has acted most iaipurtially, and kept aloof ftfoni interference in election matters. The liospital was appointed a polling place, on account of there being no other public butlding at Franktown. Only three of the patients polled, and they acknowledged to having voted for Mr Shepherd.—Signed by Messrs Hallenstein (mnyor), Boyes, Duncan, Robinson, Acland, Bell, Mulligan, Bridges, Warren, and Maunders." He hoped, under the circumstances, the hon member for 'the Dunstan would see that ho had been so far in error as to induce him to withdraw the imputations ho had thrown upon the character of Mr Beetham. Mr HAUGHTON said he was absent from the House when the statements were made by the hon- member, and ho felt bound to say now that he entirely agreed with all that was stated in the telegram. He would merely repeat that Mr. Beetham had acted in a very impartial toanner, an>3 he waß glad to see that the telegram was signed by Mr. Halleustein, the Mayor, who was Mr Shepherd's chief supporter at the election. Mr SHEPHERD eaid at the time of tiho election there was a strong feeling of indignation in the district on account of the hospital being made a polling place. It was well known that tho votes were in favor of Mr Haughton, because it was dearly understood by his supporters that it was done in order to enable Mr Haughton to get a number of votes, and he would again repeat that the bon. member for the Wakatipu held his 'seat at this day in consequence of the proceedings to which he had referred. The signatures to the telegram were those of Mr Haughton's supporters, but he did not attach any importance to the telegram at all ; it was very easy in the district to get up that kind of thing. It must be remembered that the contest in the district was between tho liberal party and tho Bquatting party. The hon. member for the Wakatipu stood as the representative of the squatting party, and was strongly supported by Mr Boyes. He had no hesitation in saying that this telegram was iuspired by tho hon member for the Wakatipu, because ho knew the hon. member's tacticß so well ; therefore he did not attach much importance to it. Besides, this Mr Boyes canvassed the district for weeks in the interest of the hon member, and was then appointed deputy returning-officer. Was that an impartial act ? He ventured to say that it was anything but impartial to appoint a strong supporter of one of the candidates to such an office. Mr MACANDREW desired to say that Mr Beethum was one of tho most independentuiinded men, and he merely wished to bear his testimony that that gentleman was one of tho last men who would be guilty of such conduct as that imputed to him by the hon member for the Dunstan. HIGHWAY BOABDS BIMi. This bill was further considered in committee, and, the whole of the clauses of the bill having been gone through, the Chairman reported the amendments, which wero ordered to be considered to-morrow. COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MPANS. Mr STAFFORD, before the House went into committee, proposed to make a few observations on tho proposals of the Government, and ho would say at once that those proposals were eminently unsatisfactory to him and to those who acted with him ; they viewed those proposals with very great alarm. Acting upon a figure of speech of the Colonial Treasurer, thab be was in the position of a spendthrift who desired to remodel his conduct, and that the finances of tho country were to be restricted for the future they had expected that the Government policy would have been so framed. But thoy found that the proposals of the Government were in an exactly opposite direction. On the 30th June last, the unfunded debt amounted to £216,650, including a sum of £28,000 which had been advanced on certain contingent liabilities on the confiscated lands which it wus proposed to charge specially on those lands. Then came the deficency bills for £90,000, which was in reality an overdraft for which new bills are aßked. On the whole their unfunded debt amounted to £276,650. At their present rate of progress in three years there would be an increased debt beyond the ordinary revenue of £353,000 j even the defence department was being providod for out of the borrowed money. Together, their funded and unfunded debt amounted to £9,000,000, representing an annual charge of £542,588, or a tax of £2 2b 6d per head upon every man, woman, aud child in New Zealand. Ho could only characterise their whole policy as a series of gambling transactions. With reference to their Board of Works, ho considered the method of its constitution the most corrupt and the most susceptible of abuse it was 'within the ingenuity of man to provide. Their proposals were transparently rotten. In regard to the Brogden contracts, he knew of no right conferred by the proceedings of the legislature of the colony which authorised tho Government to call them contracts. They were introducing into tho country a foreign power which would destroy it ; a power which would be greater than the Government and tho Legislature together. The contracts only fell short of taking over tho whole country by not relieving us of tho expense of Government. The guarantee system he considered tho most ruinous the country could adopt. [Mr Stafford gave his reapons.] And when their credit was so high in tho English money market as it was at present, why should they go to the Messrs Brogden hut in hand and ask them to construct, our railways ? In India and Victoria tho result of inquiry was tho universal condemnation of the guaranteo system, and it would be desirable to reconsider the scheme, even if the House had given its adhesion to it. Another moat objectionablo feature was the proposal to pay for the railways in land. The Government had shunted No. 1 contract for the present, and he hoped tho day would never come when the country would authorise tho giving away of the land for railway purposes, except whore there had been mosb special and careful consideration of the case. There was one part of New Zealand where it might be advisable to pay for railways in land, and that was the portion of the colony bet-ween Neleon and the West Coast if it should be desirable. With reference to their immigration proposals he had looked in vain for any proposal to settle the people on the lands of the country. He altogether objected to giving to tho contraotore twenty acres of land for every immigrant brought out by them He would have no objection to give the land to the

immigrants themselves. He objected to having these immigrants "shovelled" on our Bhores ; people who wore gathered anywhere without any care as to their suitableness. He considered the policy of the Government to be a cowardly one. With reference to the constitutional proposals, he would say little. He could only say that ho could not forget the taunts of the Premier when in opposition as to the Government performing the duty of political pedlars. Why, these very men who had been so solicitous a 9 to the fate of the provinces had dealt them their death blow. If the lato Government had whipped them with a whip, the prosent Government had whipped them with scorpions. Mr YOGEL pointed out that "a great deal of the denunciations of the hon member were renunciations of his own opinions of lest year. He had " warned the Government," but the Government had been warned that everything they did would prove a failure. Had they paid attention to warnings they would have done as little as their predecessors, and they did literally nothing in the way of progress. When ho complained of their policy now he forgot that last year it wne he who proposed that they should override the provinces and take away the whole of their land. (Hear, hear, from Mr Stafford, and <: Why don't you do it now ?") The objection to tho construction of Government railways was an exploded idea; one that was being abandoned in England. He failed to see in what way the House desired to see reductions. He saw that every item that was proposed for reduction was resented by hon members. If the hon member objected to increased taxation, how did bo propose to meet their deficiency ? The Government had not limited their constructive power to tho formamation of a Timaru Board of Works Bill. They had come down with large measures, and if the hon member was not satisfied with them let him come down with proposals of his own. (Hoar, hear.) The hon member had complained of the amount of money borrowed, yet he was of those who assisted in the borrow. ng. (Hear, hear.) With reference to the system of payments he was not prepared to say they would not modify them. With regard to the hon member's remarks with reference to the Board of of Works, the Government proposed that three of the members should retire annually, because they did not desire to frame a cast iron board ; that a board nominated by the outgoing Government should not bo forced on the incoming Government. If the Government had said that tho board should have been constituted for five years the hon member would have said that the Government had fixed upon the country an objectionable institution, requiring their continuance ia office. The hon. member had gone on to the popular platform by referring to a power behind the throne, but he could assure the hon member that the Government had no intention of favoring those persona who supposed that foreign capital should be shut out, and the spending of the money of the country sliould be confined to them. At the risk of offending those persons and the hon member himself, he would say that it was the intention of the Government to encourage the coming into the country of contractors of large means, because it was better that they should deal with one person than with six or seven ; it would be very inconvenient to have the work stopped by one of the stnull contractors whom tho hon meaber would like to see engaged on their railways. It was rather amusing that while we in the colony imagined we wore under a hideous nightmare, the contractors themselves were under no such impression, but really thought the House had the best of the bargain. With regard to tho guaranteo system, he would Bay, not because ho had been instrumental iv drawing the contract himself, that they were, either one or the other, framed in such a manner as to be more favorable to the Government than to the contractor. They were far more favorable than the Indian contracts, and he would tell the House that if they rigidly held p3 these contracts, the contractors were inclined not to go on with them. The question is — Do those contracts represent a favorable mode of carrying on the railways ? That he would leave with them to decidpj but he would tell them that the Government had como to the conclusion unanimously that the most favorable terms for the colony were cash payments. The hon member was dissatisfied because, as he said, they had exceeded their powers. What would ho have said if they had done nothing at all ? They did not choose to stand idle ; doing nothing at all as had been done by other Governir.ents. The Government proposed to suit the emigration arrangements to the requirements of each portion of the colony ; they desired toaraidany cast-iron system. The hon member seemed to have objections to everything tho Government proposed and everything the Government did not propose. If the House wished to take into its hands the management of immigration he could only assure them that it would not be a success. With reference to whipping the provinces with scorpions, tho hon member should have been the last to make any such charge. They used to hear from the hon member that the table of the House literally groaned with petitions from the outlying districts, but where were those petitions now.? All the groanß they were now accustomed to hear were those of the hon member; tho Government had successfully devised means for satisfying thoßO wants. Tho hon member had alluded to his constructive power, but what had becomo of his own constructive power ? Tho country bad never had any evidence of it, for neither he nor his colleagues could ever agree upon anything. He himself occupied tho position of a centre between two poles. What had his Government done ? They had succeeded in forming tho Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works and tho Westland County Council. Contrast this with the present Government. Had they dono nothing more than that? Could they bo accused of having done nothing at all ? Wore they to say nothing of the accomplishment of tho formation of a line of communication by coach twice a week between Wellington and Taranaki ; nor had thoy been negligent of domestic legislation. Ho could refer to the Land Transfer, the Annuities Act, and those other acts which had been proved to bo so successful by the test of experience. The Government had asked the Assembly to give them power and to assist them in using it for doing what we all came out to the country to do, and that was, to assist thorn in developing a country which, when we entered it, was little bettor than a wilderness. If thoy were allowed to go on with their policy he believed that in tho course of a few years New Zealand would bo placed in a position of prosperity which would make it tho envy of other colonies , and the admiration of other places which have as yet no connection with it. What the House had to consider is this. Will tho Government of the country carry out this policy ? He felt so warm an interest in that policy ; he felt co anxious to sco it carried out — to see it prosecuted to a successful termination, that it was, for his part, a matter of utter insignificance as to who should direct it. No amount of sneers or hostile eriticiem could possibly deprive tho Government of the credit of having initiated or of having put in pro gvcßß those works, which were approved of throughout the oountry. If it was the opinion of the House that other persons could carry out that policy better than they could he would give them all the assistance it was in his powor to give as an independent member, and not as tho head of an organised opposition. Tho Government had already stated that they believed a strong Ministry was necessary, and wished tho House to understand, that thoy had not made that statomont in any feeling of weakness, but because they knew thab a very atrong Grovernment wne required at a time like the present. Ho rogretted that they were to have no division on the termination of this debate — no division by which to enable them to test the feeling of tho House on the acceptation or otherwise of their proposals, but nevertheless hon members would believe him when he said that it was necessary that there should be a Btrong Go-

Ternment now, because in initiating a system of public works like those of tho Government, they required strength to contond with all those local jealousies which would naturally rise to the surface, and taken in thut light, the hon. member deserved credit for having offered, last session, to assist. The colony had, to Borne extent, passed the threshold, but was yet very near tho entrance. The board had been introduced with the view to separate, as far as possible, the prosecution of the public works of the country from tin political feelings and prejudices of the passing moment, and if he were to look upon that objection bb the chief indictment of tho hon. member— that their system for carrying on the public works was faulty— all he wished to spflFVas that the Government desired the boai '^o be a tribunal in which the country would have confidence. Mr GILLIES noticed that the Colonial Treasurer had a very happy knack of avoiding anything of an unpleasant nature, and taking those points most likely to produce favorable appearances. In his budget of 1869 he told the House that thero would be a surplus of £16,000, but instead of a surplus of £16,000 there was a deficiency of £30,000. Then we came to the past year, and it was estimated that they would finish the financial year of 1871 with a surplus of £78,000. [Mr Yogel : Tho supplementary estimates amounted to £118,000] The hon. member says the supplementary estimates amounted to £1 18,000, but they only amounted to £84,000, and they tell us now that the deficiency to the colony only amounts to £136,0000. So that wo were steadily growing in debt. The Colonial Treasurer told them that th« pnyirenta during the first three years of the great scheme would be very trifling, a mere nothing, and vet in the first of those three years we were called upon to pass stamp duties and duties on grain. Last year they had gra'id promises ; a glittering Christmas-tree was he'd up to them, full of golden promises, but where , were those promisesjnow ? The tree is now loaded with disappointment, and required again the magio touch of the great conjuror. The proposal to take the £100,000 out of loan for road boards, he looked upon as a piece of rotten finance. It was e-tated by the bill recently brought down that tho payment was to continue until the act was repealed, but was it supposed that they were really so sanguine as to imagine that these payments were to continue. The budget had been called a retrenchment budget, but the retrenchment meant that the money to be saved should be taken from the provinces and bo spent by the General Govetnment ; and that was what they called reduction of unproductive expenditure. [Mr Gillies went through the estimates, pointing out the fallacy of supposiug thit there was a real saving in the estimates for the year.] Then they had what appeared to bo the largest saving, the saving of £10,000 on the native expenditure. It was no saving whatever. The charge had simply beon transferred from the consolidated revenue to the land revenue, and the North Island revenue meant its goldfield revenue, so that the apparent saving on the native vote was no saving whatever, and he challenged the Colonial Treaeurer to show that it was anything else. The pretence that they were about to assume tho functions was a most delusive one, because the General Government did not propose to relieve them of tho duty counected with their hospital., gaols, roads, lighthouses, and all tho other duties appertaining to Provincial Governments. All they proposed to do was to relieve the provinces of their purses. It was mere sham to say that they were taking over an amount of the duties of Provincial Governments commensurate with the revenue they were tnking. One important fact that was lost sight of was that the Government were not taking the money of the Colonial Treasurer; they were taking the money of tho taxpayers of the country. With regard to the Brogden contracts, he could not see how they were bound to accept one or other of the contracts, as stated by the Colonial Treasurer the other evening when a clause of the agreement itself expreaely stipulated that he had no power to enter into those contracts if to the constitution of the Board of Works, he could hardly understand how they could^call it a non-political board, when it was proposed that they might be selected from the members of tho House, who might be allowed to hold seat* in both bodies. Ho . would like to hear less about these great schemes, and more actual progress. The system of General Government control ho thought would bo tedious and costly. Tho boardß and sub-boards would have to be paid, and he knew not where the money was to come from. He described such proposals to be reckless finance. . 'The business of the country BhouJd be conducted in the same way ub private business. • Tho Colonial Treasurer might well afford, with his large majority, to defy the efforts ot those who were attempting to reduce expenditure, but having done his ! duty towards his constituents in endeavoring to bring about a reduction, it would bo the fault of tho country itself if this reckless expenditure were gone on with. The motion that the Speaker do leavo the chair was then put and agreed to. WAYS AND MEANS. On tho suggestion of Mr Wood, tho consideration, in committee of Ways and Means, of the Stamp Duties was postponed. GOLD DUTY ACT AMENDMENT DILL. This bill was read a second time and ordered to bo committed tom orrow. The bill is one to indemnify the Government for the collection of gold duty from tho Ist October, 1870, to tho Ist January last, a necessity which arose in consequence of a flaw in the original aot. ELECTION PETITION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr FOX, who introduced this measure, withdrew it from the second reading, informing the House that a more pc: feet measure would be introduced next session. MOTUEKA. ELECTION COMMITTEE. The consideration of the report of this committee was postponed. THIItD HEADINGS. The Agricultural Produco Lien Bill and the Jury Bill were read a third time and passed. THE CLT7TIIA RIVER. Mr MURRAY withdrew his motions on the questions with reference to the improvement of tho navigation of the Clutha river, and the granting of a crown grant to the Clutha Trust Estate. COMMITTALS. The Contractors Debts Bill was committed. Mr Bathgate proposod the introduction of a new clause to the effect that the word " workman" should include any person supplying material to a contractor or sub-contractor. Tbe motion for the insertion of the clause was negatived. Mr Swanson moved the insertion of a clause, compelling contractors to pay workmen for time lost through bills given by them in payment of wages not being met on presentation. The motion for the insertion of tho olauee was negatived, for the reason that it would endanger the passing of the measure during the present session, on account of the necessity, in accordance with the rules of Parliament, of transmitting tho amendment for the consideration of the Legislative Council. The bill was then road a third time and passed. The City of Dunedin Borrowing Bill was next considered. Mr Gillies proposed the insertion of a new clause, which debarred debenture holders under the bill from any claim on tho provincial or colonial revenue. The insertion of tho clause was agreed to. Some other amendments wore made, which were ordered to bo considered to-morrow. The Forest Trees Planting Encouragement Bill waß next considered. Some amendments were made, which wore ordered to be considered to-morrow. The Public Debts Sinking Fund Bill xraa con.idered. JNo amendments having been made the bill waß read a third time and passed. The House adjourned at a quarter to two o'clock. ____-__-__________-__-_-------, MUTUAL INVESTMENT SOCIETY The undersigned are purchasers oi shares in the above. Jacob Joseph Co. „,

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