HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVI, Issue 3313, 7 October 1871, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Friday, October 6. The Speaker took the chair at h&lf-pasfc two o'clock. PETITION OP WAIKATO OFFICERS. The motion of Captain M'Pherson with re* ference to tho petition of several Waikato officers, erroneously reported in our yesterday's issue as having been agreed to, was, on the motion of the hon member, referred back to the Public Petitions Committee. ELECTORAL DISTRICTS. Mr WAKEFIELD asked fcho Colonial Secretary whether there exists any mop of New Zealand as a whole, divided into eleotoral districts for the election of members of thia House j and if not, whether the Government is willing to give directions for the construe* tion of such a map, to bo hung in the' Library, or some other conspicuous place in thia building ? Mr GISBORNE said he did not think there was any such map at present in existence, though he thought one might be easily obtained. At present there were errors in many of the electoral districts, but as soon as they were rectified they would be correotly described on a map which would be hung up a* desired. THE CONSTITUTION ACT. Mr CURTIS asked the Colouial Secretary when he will be prepared to introduce a bill to remedy tho alleged flaw in the Constitution Act, which formed tho ground of the decision of the Supreme Court of Appeal in the case of Bagge v Sinclair, and which has, since that decision was given, prevented Provinoial Coua oils from exercising the legislative powera bestowed upon them by the Constitution Aot ? Mr GUSBORNE, whose answer was very indistinotly heard, was understood to say that a bill would be prepared and brought down. TE KOOTI. Mr CREIG-HTON asked whether the Government had any information as to the contents of a telegram dated Tauranga, October 6, to tho effect that Te Kooti had been reinforced by a number of Waikatos. Mr M'LEAN said the information, as far as ho could ascertain, was a mere rumor. A tracd of Te Kooti, two days old, had been discovered by Captain Preece and the Arawas a long way from tho Uriwera country and laupo. The rumor roferred to by the hon member had also been received in Wellington, but he was certain that there was no foundation for the rumor of tho adhesion of the Waikatos to T© Kooti. TRANSLATION OF BILLS. TAIAUOA moved that all bills introduced into this House or parts therein affecting the natives may be translated into the Mnoii language, and be referred to the committee on native affairs, before discussion takes place on them. The motion was taken out .of tu>s%asaa " unopposed" one, but after a .considerable amount of opposition, a discussionwas called for, the result being —Ajes, 41; Noes, 15. PAPERS. Mr Gisbobhe presented, by command, a number of papers. TKBASUBY BILLS. The Houae went into committee to consider of giving leave to introduce a bill intituled An Aot to provide for a deficiency of ninety thousand pounds by the issue of Treasury Bills repayable over the two next financial years. The committee having given leave, the consideration of the report waß ordered for nest sitting day.

THE GOVEBNMENT BILLS. Mr YOGEL, before going into Committee of Supply, made to the House, according to promise, a preliminary skotch of the bills on wbioh the Government proposed to found the changes to be effected by the proposals to which he had referred in his financial statement. In doing so he said :— I will very briefly describe such of the load ing features of the bills we propose to bring down as may be calculated to place hon members in possession of the nature of those bills, But I must premieo that I take this course not because I at all believe that it is incumbent on the Government to make such a preliminary statement, and not because I am unaware that the practice would bo exceedingly inconvenient. But I recognise that this session we have to deal with unusual circumstances. Wo are admittedly bringing down the business less leisurely thau wo desire ; and wo are anxious to take the House into our confidence to the fullest extent. On the other hand, seeing that I am about to give these particulars before the several bills nre fully prepared, and that, as honorable members are perfectly aware, when once a bill has been prepared it is necessarily subjected to many nice considerations, honorable members must not compluin if the statement I Bhall now make is found, when compared with the bills as submitted to the House, to be more or less inaccurate. In. short, I wish hon members to understand that nay statement will be made with the view of throwing some light upon the measures we propose to bring down ; but that I will not undertake to say that before the measures aro introduced some alterations may not bemado. With these preliminary remarks, I will first refer to The bill respecting the government of the Provinces. The leading features of this measure are these : — It enables v Superintendent to sit in the Council oi his province. Aftor the next general election for Provincial Councils, except in the Provinces of Hawke's Bay, Marlborough, and Taranaki, it will reduce the number of members in each province to the same number of members as represent the province iv this House ; the districts being the same as for the election of members of this Houee, and tho same number of members being returned for each district. The bill will give power to order a fresh election for Superintendent without tho necessity of dissolving the Council : or to enablo tho Council to be dissolved without rendering necessary a fresh election for Superintendent. I am not able to cay whether we shall in this bill deal with the case of the Grey District, or shall deal with it separately. But the intention of the Government is to propose that that district shall be added to the Nelson Province ; but that some special provision shall be made for establishing road boards •within tho whole of the goldflelds of tho Neleon Province, and for otherwise dealing to some extent with the local revenue. The Bill to transfer to the Governor, in certain events, tho powers conferred on Superintendents, is a measure by which we propose to enable the Governor, under certain circumstances, at tho request of the Superintendent and Provincial Council, to take over the whole administration of a province. The bill to repeal the Payments to Provinces Act, 1870, will, as far as I am aware, be a faithful transcript of the proposals with respect to payments to provinces which are set forth in the financial statement. The next bill, to provide for a deficiency of £90,000 by the issue of Treasury Bills repayable over tho next two financial years, will a^o bo a measure to curry into effect proposals which were stated with sufficient clearness in the financial statement. A Bill to Amend the Public Revenues Act is a measure to extend the issue of deficiency bills to £100,000, as described in the fiuancial statement. The Public Trust Office Bill I need not particularly refer to, as it baa no special relation to the financial statement. It is the rointroduction of a similar bill to that which was passed through the House last session, but which was subsequently thrown out in the other House. I will touch upon some other points with ■which we propose to deal, and which will more or less affect the finance of the provinces. PUBLIC WOIiKS PUND. Carrying out the proposal made in the financial statement, we shall proposa to provide that there shall bo a public works fund, out of Yrhich all expenditure on account of public ■works and immigration, authorised by law, Bhall bo defrayed ; and iuto which all receipts on account of public works and immigration shall be paid. One half of the revenue collected ns sta'ap duties to be paid into the fund. BOAED OF WOBES. The board to consist of President and five members, to bo nominated by the Governor ; and of the Minister of Public Works j the Chief Engineer, and the eecoad Engineer, who are to be members ex ojficio. Three of the nominated members to retire annually, but to be eligible for re-nomination. Disqualification act not to apply to the nominated members or to the President. The board to have the entire charge of public works, subject to the directions of the Minister of Public Works. The bjurd to report to the Assembly, annually, as to the whole of its operations ; also, to. report how and to what extent, if at all, its recommendations have been overridden by the Minister ; what railway or railways, if any, it recommends for construction ; what railways have been applied for, and which of them, if any, it does not recommend ; the grounds of recommendation or non-recom-mendation to be stated in each case. The bill will contain other provisions, enabling sub- boards to be formed in different parts of the colony; and also for the formation of a board to take charge, under the direction of the chief board of works upon the gold fields. IMMIGBATION. We shall submit provisions by which the cost of immigration will be defrayed out of the Loan ; the provinces to be relieved from charge, imd all recoveries from immigrants to be paid into the public works and immigration fund. We shall provide (hat, in any province within which land has been taken for the construction of railways, such land shall be available for the settlement of immigrants. In provinces where no railways are being constructed, or where no land for tho construction of railways has been obtained, the Government, on the recommendation of the Board of Works, shall be at liberty to take land. The upset price of Buch land, less any compensation payable to the pastoral holder or holders, to be paid to tho province in caeh, if the colony is not liable for an equivalent amount of provincial loan. When the provincial loan has been consolidated, an equivalent amount to be taken off tho loan liability of the province, and added to the colonial liability. Provisions will be made for classifying land and for disposing of it. DEEDS. We propose to make provision to render it more easy to obtain tho consent of persons in- j terested, to railways being taken through their lands. Wo shall alao ask the House to. deal with tho subject of compensation for land taken for railways. Where tho Board of Works and a landowner fail to agree as to the compensation to be paid, we propose that some one appointed by the Governor shall hold a court, and be aided by two assessors appointed by a judge of the Supremo Court : the court to receive evidence, and the compensation to be fixed without right of appeal. Further, we Bhall propose that it shall be competent for the Court to refuse to give any compensation, if it be made to appear that the railway will add to the value of a property to an amount more than sufficient to cover the loss consequent upon the taking of so much land as is necessary for the construction of the line. We shall ask the House to agree that tho Court shall have power to require the claimant to pay the costs of the Court if it appear that

ho has been unwilling, without reference to the Court, to accept reasonable compensation offered by tho Board of Works. The Government will scok power for carrying out all the proposals contained in the public works statement with respect t ) providing for the construction of main railways ; railways to open up coalfields; und branch or feeder litcs. Beforo constructing a main line, tho Government to decide whether its cost shall be charged agninsfc the land revenue of the province, or lund shall be taken to cover charges. In the former case, when tho lino is finished, the interest, if any, or tho guarantee, if any, paid during construction, to be capitalized, and a determination to be come to of the , yearly charge the railway involves. The province to bo hold liable for such yearly charge, together with any additions that may accrue. From such charge, to be deducted, the revenue in excess of expenditure derived from the railway, and the portion of the stamp duties paid to the public works fund which the board estimates may fairly pass in reduction of the yearly charge ; and credit to bo given to the province concerned, for its share of the Middle Island railway fund. In case the amount is not recoverable from the province — and if, in the opinion of the Assembly, such a course is desirable— a rate to bo levied by the board on the owners und occupiers of property benefited by the railway. f. Where land is taken for a railway, the 6bard, if necessary, to demand from time to time that a larger quantity shall be given, if it appear that the valuo of so much as has been taken is insufficient to meet tho charges to which the Public Works Fund will be subjected on account of tho railway, after deducting the allowance, if any, from the Stamp Duties. Or any such deficiency may bo met by a special rate or by charge against the province, or partly by laud being taken, partly by special rate, and partly by charge against the province ; or by any two of those plans. We propose to return to the province any surplus receipts. We shall propose that the yearly charges for railways to develop coal mines shall be charged wholly or in part against the mines ; and iv order to secure the development of such mines, we shall ask the House to agree that, should the mines not yield sufficient to defray tho annual charge, a period of four years may bo allowed to elapse before any steps are taken to recover locally the amount of the annual payments. Another proposal will be that tho Board of Work 3 shall be at liberty to consider applications for special aid for the development of coal mines. We shall make it a condition that the best scientific opinion shall be taken ; and if, after investigation, the board is satisfied that tho amount asked for may be beneficially expended, and that tho expenditure will lead to the permanent development of mines from which coal may be supplied at rates profitable to the supplier, and suitable to the purposes of consumers, the board may recommend to the Government to authorise advances for the purpose or purposes specified. On Buch recommendation the Government to be at liberty to make advances, taking 6uch security as, in ! the opinion of the board, is sufficient for repayment. The money advanced to bo expended by the board strictly for the purposes for which the advance is made. BEANCIt BAII/WAYS. In respect to branch railways we propose that whenever a Number of residents, occupiers, or owners of land in any district contiguous to a main railway are of opinion that the construction of a branch railway through such district will be for their advantage, they shall be at liberty to ask the Board of Works to declare that such district is one contiguous to a main line of railway constructed or in ' course of construction, and fitted to bo considered a district through whioh it would be competent to construct a branch railway'; and if so fitted, the board shall define the boundaries of tho district, or of a district or districts which, together or separately, may be eligible for the construction of a branch railway or railways. The board to cause to bo prepared, at the expense of the applicants, a list showing the extent and the value of land, and the names of occupiers and owners within the district. If a petition be presented to the board from a number of occupiers and owners of land, requesting the construction of a branch railway, the board — after satisfying itself that such petition represents a majority of the resident occupiers and owners within the district, and of more than a moiefy of the value of the land within it, may signify that it will recommend to the Goveramentthe construction of such railway. In making that recommendation, the board shall state the terms of construction it advises. But those terms shall include and provide for a local liability by means of an annual rate, sufficient to cover at least one-half of the annual charge for such railway, or, at the discretion of the board, the proportion of the annual charge so to be covered may be fixed at five-sevenths. The Governor may order the construction of the railway, on the terms recommended ; but the rate not to commence until the railway has been completed. Provision will bo made for striking the rate. Mr Yogel, in conclusion, said there was no truth in the statement that the Government desired to conceal from the Houso the nature of the business which they would have to bring, before them before tho end of the session. His health rendered it impossible that he could be in tho House during tho evening sitting, and if the House desired to go on with tho financial discussion ho would be prepared go on with it then, although he know it was inconvenient that it should be gone on with at that time. Ho would accede to whatever plan would bo most convenient to hon members. Mr TRIBE wished to know when the Colonial Treasurer would bo prepared to bring down the measures affocting tho county of West land". He must say the little arrangement astonished him. Mr YOGEL said that it would be one of the earliest. It would be brought down early next week. Mr STAFFORD did not think tho Colonial Treasurer need have apologised for the statement he had made, or havo suggested that it should not form a precedent, for if tho hon member, had followed the usual Parliamentary precedents, ho should have made the statoment when ho asked leave to introduce the bills to which it related. Had tho hon. gentleman made the statement then the Houso would have been prepared to discuss the principles embodied in those bills that day, but as it was it would be quite impossible to expect that tho Houso would be prepared to enter into the discussion of those four measures. At the same time, ho must say that the statement made was of a very interesting character, and the House would be very eager to see it in print in order to be able, at as early a d»y as possible, to discuss the questions which it involved. Tuesday next would, he thought, be a sufficiently early day to discuss tho question, because, as the Colonial Treasuror had Btated that he would not be able to bo present during tho evening sitting, ho hardly thought it would be advisablo to discuss the question in his absence, a 9, if they did so, they would have to discuss it over again when the hon gentleman was present, so that no really useful result would accrue from tho discussion taking place before Tuesday next. The matter was very interesting indeed as affecting tho provinces. It had been suggested that an arrangement had been come to between somo of the Nelson members and tho member for tho Grey Valley. He hardly thought some of the Nelson members were prepared for that announcement. The hon gentleman had also stated that he intended to relieve tho provinces from tho administration of the goldfields and their revenue ; a very pleasant term, which simply meant that tho provinces wero to ceaso to be provinces in tho proper acceptation of the word. Ho did not quite understand whether the Government proposed to take the general debate firßt or to continue tho consideration of tho estimates. Ho would take the opportunity of stating to tho hon gentleman that he and those, who

acted with him wero prepared strongly to object to the San Francisco service. As it had been stated by the Colonial Secretary on the previous day that a definite day would be fixed for the discussion of the resolution tor the settlement oi' that matter, he would suggest to the Government that it would ho unwine to outer upon tho consideration of the estimates for the postal service until after (he House had expressed its opinion on the San Francisco service, Mr YOGEL would bo willing to postpone tho discussion on the statement until Tuesday, and also, to postpone the discussion of the vote for the San Francisco service until that resolution was brought down. He hoped h?u members would not understand that tin.resolution to be brought down in any wnr countenanced repudiation of tho agreement with the colony. COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY: On the Chairman reading out the vote of £5,51-3 16s for the printing department, Mr Habhison said sufficient evidence had been brought before tho Reporting Debates Coin mittee to show that the office wa3 in a complelo stato of disorganisation. He was not j prepared to say where the fault lay ; whether it was caused by tho workmen or whether it ! was caused by the iucompetoncy of the head of the department, but certain it was that a vory strong feeling of discontont existed in the office. In investigations which had boon j recently made,the committee had been assured over and over agaiu that the extreme expense of the department was duo to the circumstances to which he had alluded ; that the great expense was not incurred in the printing of tho work itself but was caused by the disorganisation of the department, and want of management. Mr Gisbohne agreed that the whole matter deserved inquiry, and ho hoped some hon member would move that an inquiry should take place into the management of tho department Mr M'Leod said there must be something very wrong in the working of the establishment, although he did not see how to probe the matter. There was one strange point connected with tho matter, and that was, that the lowest employe in the establishment was in tho habit of holding communication with the members of the House. From long experience amoug workinon he found, as a rule, that they seldom complained, all in tho same direction, unless there was something wrong with the management. He also knew by experience that in nine cases out of ten growling wa9 caused by somo bad management, and that the manager was to blame for tho dissatisfaction. There was no doubt that tho establishment was too cramped, and that the appliances and the material were not adequate to turning out the work required. It only convinced him that the whole department should be thrown open to competition. There was now a unanimous opinion that fifty per cent more than was necessary was being expended in the printing office. Mr Mervyn also spoke on the motion. Mr CitEianTON said tho Reporting Debates Committee had had evidence brought before them of the extravagance and mismanagement of the office. There was another extraordinary fact connected with tho estimates for this department. No mattor how much work was done, or how little, the estimates from year to year wero the same to a farthing; they never varied. He thought the calculations displayed a wonderful, a miraculous, amount of ability. He hoped when the examination did take place that the evidence would be taken on oath, and that it would r.ot be a mere sham. He could assure the Government that unless this were done there would bo great difficulty in getting at the root of the matter of which so much complaint had been made. On tho understanding that the inquiry should bo made, the vote was passed without reduction. On the vote for tho geological department, £2900, a lengthened discussion ensued, which was enlivened very much by Mr Creighton's allusion to the £300 paid to Mr Walter Buller for the 300 " sparrow" skina " deposited in the museum, which, by the way, he had spent a day or two in endeavoring to find, but could not. Mr Swanson made some amusing remarks about Mr Hector's prognostications as to tho existence of gold at tho Thames. If they had taken the advice of that gentleman and had been " very careful to keep their money in their pockets and not spend it in searching for gold at the Thames," why, of course, they would have had none of those prosperous times which thoy had recently experienced in Auckland. Mr Gillies defended Dr. Hector's reputation, stating, with reference to that gentleman's opinion as to the geology of the Thames, that Mr Swanson had not put the case fairly. What Dr. Hector did say was, that if gold were discovered at the Thames it would be contrary to all scientific teaching, and this was the opinion of many other eminent geologists, Dr. Hochstetter for instance. The disparagement of Messrs. Swanson and Creighton brought up the " intellectuals." Mr Dillon Bell defended the vote on the ground that our scientific institutions should bo encouraged by every means. The papers of the New Zealand Institute had excited considerable attention amonpet learned men in all parts of Europe. Mr Bell related an anecdote on this head, which was certainly not much to the point and consistod in tho fact thut when ho and the Duke of A.-gylo were ' together at a scientific dinner in England, the Duke made some inquiry about the botanical names of New Zealand trees, which ho (Mr Bell) could not answer. The vote passed without reduction. The vole of £2,500 for the expenses of the introduction of tho Education Act was passed, Mr Fox intimating that if tho Act wero not passed of course tho voto would not be required. On the vote for Resident Magistrates tho " birds " came up again, Mr Bunny strenuously objecting to the payment of only £200 to Major Edwards for filling the offico of Resident Magistrate at Wanganui, while Mr Buller was receiving £600 as a year's Balary for the performance of the fame duties. He gave notice that if Major Edward's salary were not increased ho would movo that an > address be presented to His Excellency for the purpose of increasing it. Mr M'Lean intimated that tho Government would support such a motion. Wi Pabata made some observations on tho matter of Mr Buller's visit to England. He thought Major Edward's salary Bhould be increased, and that he should be retained in the office. The natives had no very favorable recollections of Mr Bullor, on account of his bungling at Rangitikei. There was only one reason why they would desire to see him come back, and that waß that ho had promised the natives £1,000, a promise which he had never fulfilled. If he would come back and pay that money then hs might go back to England and stay there altogether. As to the Resident Magistrate at Lyttolton it was generally agreed that tho item should continue for one year longor, when the salary for the offico should bo struck out altogether, the duties to bo performed by tho Resident Magistrate of Christchurch. Mr Rolleston and Mr Beandon very forcibly reminded the Government of thoir inconsistency in the two votes — those for the Resident Magistrate at Lyttelton and at WaDganui. To the votes for the extra clerk, £200, and assistant bailiff, £180, for the Resident Magistrate's . Court, Hokitika, Mr Haekison took exception, stating that there was not work for more than one clerk in the Court. Mr White disputed many facts adduced by Mr Harrison, pointing out the fallacy of such statements as that the population of Hokitika three or four years ngo was threefold or fourfold what it is at present ; and that ho could live quite as cheaply at Hokitika as he could in Wellington. Mr White disputed those arguments, stating that as to the population he had tho census to assist him against tho aseertions of the hon member for Grey Valley, while as to the cost of living, the statements on that mattor wero equally erroneous, as must be known to those who had lived in both places. Mr Haeeison afterwards withdrew an amendment which he made, that tho salaries bo reduced by one half, on the assurance of the Colonial Secretary that tho matter should be attended to during the

recess. When the postal votes were reached, that for the San Francisco service was passed over, and on coming to the votes for the provincial charges, Mr Fitzherbebt said the Government Bhould reconsider the matter. He argued that it was contrary to the policy of tho financial statement. His speech was a very forcible one, in which he stated that he hoped the Government would consider and give weight to tho reasons ho had adduced, and that they would not burden the provinces by the retention of charges contrary to tho principlo they had promulgated— that the proviuces were overburdened. He considered the burden under this head, £24,200, could, according to tho principle laid down by themselves, bo better borne by the oolony than by the provinces, and he hoped they would abolish tho hideous finaucial vioiousness of tho system of provincial charging. They were taking absolutely the revenue o( other Houses of Representatives and distributing it for them. They were taking away one of tho proper functions of tho Provincial Governments ; spending other people's money, and leaving them to find tho funds. Mr Habbison, Mr JonNSTON, Mr Rolleston (who considered tho leaving of this single item as a provincial chargo to be tho one blot upon the statomont of tho Colonial Treasurer), Mr Macandkew, Mr Kelly, Mr Wjiite, Mr Bunny (who thought the Government should thank the member for tho Hutt for completing the good work of abolishing provincial charges), Mr Reynolds, Mr Reid, and Mr Reeves supported Mr Fitzherbert's view. Mr Shephabd thought to mako the chargo a colonial one would be (o do an injustice to those provinces which had very little inland mails. He thought it would bo better that tho matter . should be left to be considered during the recess. Mr G. M'Lean suggested tho postponement of tho discussion, as did also Mr Swanson. Mr White proposed that tho Chairman do report progress, and at a quarterpost one tho House adjourned.