HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVI, Issue 3301, 23 September 1871, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Friday, September 22. The Speaker took the chair at lmlf-paßt two o'clock. DUNEDIN "WATERWORKS Blliti. The report of the committee on this bill was adopted and the bill read a third time and passed. PAPERS. Mr GISBORNE laid on the table a number of papers and returns. PRIVrLEfIB. Mr BRANDON drew the attention of the Speaker to certain statements contained in a leading article in that day's" I ndopm^nt." The SPEAKER said nothing coutt be 3*ne in the matter unless the hon member tab»eß' a motion on the subject. 1 Mr BRANDON, after a few disparaging remarks on the press of the city, elected to allow the matter to drop. GEEYJTOirTH NATIVE EEBBRVES. Mr HARRISON asked the Native Minister if the Government would take steps to ascertain whether the Native Reserve at Greymouth could be passed through the Native Lands Court so as to give a crown grant to the natives concerned, and enable the lesees to take advantage of the provisions of the Land Transfer Act, 1870 ? Mr M'LEAN said on application by the natives in the usual form it would be granted* The notice would receive eve.-y attention and afceps would be taken by the Government to ascertain if what the hon member asked for could be done. REDUCTION OF THE ESTIMATES. Mr OREIGHTON, on the order of the day for going into committee of supply being called on, said he would take the opportunity of moving his motion for the recasting of the Estimates so as to reduce them by at least £50,000. He said he adopted that course because they would be precluded from discussing such a question in committee of supply, and because he considered it inexpedient that they should go into the consideration of (he estimates without having an opportunity of considering them as a whole. He made no apology for this course, because he con* sidered it was the duty of every hon member of the House to economise the expenditure of public money. The Colonial Treasurer had told them that he desired his budget of this year to be known as " the retrenchment budget," but he would proceed to show that in reality there was no saving effected at all. Mr Creighton took the various classes of ex pen* diture, and showed the reductions that might be effected, mentioning that the department chargeable under the heading Defence Loan was one that might be reduced with advantage to the country, particularly as they had been told that they were entering upon u period of peace and prosperity, and he trusted hon members would agree with him when he moved that it be reduced by £25,000. After exhausting the pages of the estimates by careful working of the items in detail, Mr Creighton said he thought he had stated enough to prove that, atall events, the budget was anything but a retrenchment one, and it was the duty of the House to care* fully consider the estimates. He confessed that he had brought forward the matter very imperfectly, and would apologise to the House for having proposed to deal with so complicated a subject) in such an imperfect method; but if the House went into the estimates with* out first coHsidering whether they were or were not capable of large reductions they would not be doing their duty to the country. He had pledged himself to his constituents to reduce these estimates. Hon members from the Middle Island were always exolaiming that they objected to the native expenditure in the North Island, and they now conceded in the North that the expenditure was entirely unnecessary. Be trusted that for the sake of consistency those hon members would assist him iu reducing that excessive expenditure of which they eo much cdmplained. He did not bring forward this motion for the purpose of showing any hostility to the Government. The Colonial Treasurer had invited the House to discuss this matter, and he hoped he would not be accused of throwing opposition in their way for having done bo. He was aware that it was considered most ungracious on the part of Ministers to reduce the salaries of officers of the different departments, but no such delicacy could be felt by the House, because it was their duty to reduce very largely the expenditure of the country, and bring it within the limit of their means. Mr VOGEL said when he first saw the no* tice of the hon member upon the paper it occurred to him that he had often seen similar notices brought down by other hon members ostensibly in a spirit of kindness towards the Government. That was always the stock phrase in which these proposals were brought forward, but of course hon members knew that to attach to such expressions any feeling of sincerity would be to do the proposer an injustice, so that he trusted hon members did not entertain such a mistaken impression as to suppose that the proposal was brought down to assist the Government in any way. He would do the hon member the justice to say this, that he had evidently very carefully con* sidered the estimates, and a very great deal of credit was due to him on that account. The hon member might accept his assurance that the estimates had been prepared by the Government with the desire to save all unnecessary expense. Iu dealing with the salaries of the officers of the different departments, the Government bad acted on the rule that the officers of the Government were not supposed to be reduced on the occurrence of every period of depression. Most of the objection* urged wore such as could be best discussed in committee, because there were many points on which it struck him tbe hon member was entirely mistaken, and which might be explained in due course. Particular reference had been made to the Treasury department. There was an increase in the central office in order to carry out the inoreaaed requirements of the Government business, but there would be large savings throughout the country by the reduction of the local paymasters. On the whole, there were reforms being made iu the Treasury which would conduce very much to the public convenience throughout the colony, and at tbe same time enable the saving of con« Bidorable sums of public money. In reference to remarks about the Land Transfer office, the hon. member was not attacking the Government ; he was attacking the action of the House. The House, in adopting those measures whioh were passed in the bstsession, directed tbe Government to carry <fi» the effioi* ciency of the various departmentsJudder thoß© acts, and they had done so as wel/ as possible, and the result was that theMand Transfer Act bad been an immense eu^Sess, and that success was the best answer to the bon mem* ber's arguments on that head. If he were prepared to move for the repeal of the act the Government had no objection $ that was a mattor that rested entirely with the House. The Land Transfer and Registry of Deedo showed together a saving of £4,000. With referonce to remarks about the educational expenditure, as the bill was still Under the consideration of the House the estimates xinder that head, were entirely conjectural, and of fehe

annuities and life departments ho might say very much of what he had said in rcßpeeb lo the Land Transfer department ; it had been eminently successful — it had been unanimously approved, and was workingly exceedingly well, the expenditure, as compared with private offices, being a mere bagatelle. Tho chief objection urged against the estimates was a covert attack on tho native and defence offices. He was quite Bare that on this point there would be found to be a very small section of the House who would have the temerity to follow the hon member. There was a small section in the House and throughout the colony who would never believe that the Government of the country was being properly conducted unless we were in a perpetual state of warfare with the natives, but he thought the people of the country were now well satisfied that it was very much better for New Zealand to spend a certain amount of money in keeping the country at peace than to run tho risk of spending three tisies the amount in keeping up war. All the actions of the House which had recently proved of much benefit to New Zealand would be lost if they were to recur to the old policy of attacking tho natives. If there was any expenditvue that could be saved, he did not wish the hon member to suppose that the Government intended to shut their eyes to any proposition by which it might be effected. It might be that the Government bad overlooked certain items which they would thank the lion member for suggesting, if he would bo kind enough to do so, but if he intended to attack their policy, they were prepared to meet him, because he felt sure there was a party in the House who would protect the Government from any proposal to carry what he felt sure would be an ill- timed economy — a kind of economy which would do a great deal to injure the credit and efficiency of the public service. When the hon member talked about ornamental forces, and about knocking off £25,000 from the expenditure under tho Defence Loan he took upon himself an amount of responsibility which was harmless as long as the exercise of that responsibility was confined to mere assertions of the bind ; but if he had to undertake the application of the money he would thoa bitterly regret the proposal he had made to the House. He did not wish the House to suppose that the expenditure for which the Government asked authority would not be economised in every way possible, but he did say this : that any Government which was worthy to ask from the House provisions which it might deem necessary to the interests of the country, should be granted to them. The responsibility was a very large one, and it was the duty of the Government to ask from the House sufficient authority to enable them to meet any contingency which might arise during the year, and the House would tuke upon itself that responsibility if it took from the Government that expenditure which it asked. He would not haye said so much as he bad done bat to mark the industry which the hon member had shown. He did not intend to follow him into those particulars which he had entered upon, because they could be best Considered in committee. He would say that the Government did not see their way to take back the estimates to make those arbitrary savings pointed out by the hon member. Mr STAFFORD thought the hon member had himself to blame, and no one else, for the motion which had been brought down. He bad brought forward his budget in such, a boastful manner, and went the length of speaking of it in euoh a euphuistical way that he must not wonder at finding such a motion brought down as that of tho hon member for Eden. In looking over the annual appropriations he was bound to say that his examination resulted in a feeling of surprise and a feeling of strong regret that the Colonial Treasurer had imposed upon tho House a miserable imposition, which not only showed do saving but invited the colony to spend more than it had ever been invited to spend before. He would repeat that it was a miserable imposition. The hon gentleman, in his financial statement, told them that last year was the Jeap year of the provinces ; he might also have said that it was the leap year of the House, for there had never been authorised do much expenditure as had been authorised last year. There never had been so large an invitation to spend money until the proposals of last year came down to the House, and instead of savings on the proposals of this year there was a very large excess. When they came to analyse the estimates it Btruck one obviously that the Colonial Treasurer had attempted to take credit for a great deal that he had no right whatever to take credit for. Ab an instance, the Government claimed credit for a saving on the erection of lighthouses. They told the House that there was a oum of £8000 on the lighthouses of last year under this head which did not appear in the estimates this year ; but they all knew that the Government did not require to erect lighthouses every year. When a lighthouse was erected, there was an end of it ; they did not expect to have standing items for lighthouses. Then there were inevitable savings which any Government had a right to take credit for. The last Ministry saved £200,000 in a year, but they did not Bend tho announcement all through the country by means of the telegraph, as had been done by the present Ministry ; they did not send abroad statements about having introduced a " retrenchment budget." The hon gentleman, in his budget, said he had effected a saving of £50,000, but ho challenged him to mention where his own figures showed it ; on the contrary, there were largo increases. The country was assured by telegraph that there was a large saving, and it was proceeded to be taught that there was never such retrenchment, but he proposed to show that it was a larger expenditure than the country had ever been asked to make. Many items of expenditure had been considerably overestitmiated, and such a course was calculated to deceive the country Many hon members had told him that they looked upon these estimates firßt with surprise and then with indignation. Ab to positive facts there never should bo a Bhadow of doubt about figures. The budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was never found to be incorrect, and it was always subjected to the closest scrutiny. He was quite prepared to say that tho estimates could be cut down by the amount proposed, and thtit it I could be done in one item — the San Francisco j mail service, which cost £45,000. He had no j hesitation in saying that the mail service of this country could, for some years to come, be maintained for £25,000 a year ; the present service wbs an unnecessary luxury for us. It was not only an unnecessary luxury, it was an unjußtifiuble luxury. They had been told in the Government speech to reduce the expenditure, and here they had one very effective mode of lopping off an unnecessary indulgence. There were very many other ways in which the saving of the £50,000 might be effected, and they need not starve the officers of the service in doing it. He quite concurred that it was a mistake to reduce salaries, although it could not bo doubted that there was a popular belief that the officers of the Government were highly overpaid. He did not know how such n belief had grown up. Ho could only refer those who were of that opinion to the Government of tho dominion of Canada, where the heads of departments wero paid, in some cases, as much as fifty per cent higher than those of New Zealand. With regard to the clerks there was not much difference ; they were as well paid as in tho Imperial service. Therefore he did not think tho heads of departments should be reduced, except by a combination of offices. That was where the Government of New Zealand wqb so expensive. They had so many centres o'f population that they must always havo a little more expensive Government machinery. In Melbourne and Sydney they employed only one officer to do what, in many instances, was done by nine or ten in New Zealand. Take as an example the case of Auckland, whore they had four survey offices, each performing its fragmentary duties, which, without a doubt, would bo better done by one. These vrero matters which might be said to be irrelevant,

but ho considered that they were not, as they went in tho direction of a grent saving of taxation. There was no one in New Zealand more sincere in his belief in the financial policy than the Colonial Treasurer himself, nnd with that belief, of course no one could more regret to see it in danger than tho hon gentleman himself, aud if ho would only boast a littlo less ho would havo less reason to bo apprehensive of such dangers ; but that waa the failing of tho present Government — they are contantly boasting. They keep a lot of paid ministerial organs, to which are transmitted by means of the telegraph a lot of carefully fabricated items of information of what tho Government wero doing. What the Government did would be much more believed in if there was less of this kind of thing. Ho would say this : that tho Government had very largely had the good fortune of a lull in native affairs ; that was to say, they only had to stamp out the embers of war, or rather insurrection, that existed when they came into office. They had had a great piece of good luck. They found tho natives i in a state of great exhaustion, and all they had to do was to attempt tho utter destruction of To Kooti and a few people who remained with him. But this was a most j boastful Government ; they were continually saying "No people, can do as much as wo can do ;" but there were people in the country who were not prepared to admit that they wero the only persons who could carry on the Government, and that no one else could do so well as they could, and though they might go on crying out what fine fellows they were, they would find out that there were others who were quite able to perform all that they arrogated to themselves. Ho quite agreed that £50,000 could be saved, and unless tho saving wore mado the financial statement would bo a delusion, a mockery, and a snare. Mr GIBBORNE said the deductions of the hon member for Titnaru were incorrect. It was quite true that he was very dextrous at figures and great at savings, but he should be more careful when he made charges against the Government of imposition on tho country. Mr Gisborne refuted most of Mr Stafford's arguments. Mr WOOD Baid the Colonial Treasurer, in answer to the member for Eden, instead of arguing the matter, confined himself almost entirely to twitting him in regard lo the motion being brought forward in opposition to the Government. Ho had no doubt whatever that the course most pleusing to the Government would be for the House to accept their policy without saying a single word or making tho slightest possible remark, but however much they might be doing their duty to tho Government by following such a course, they would not be doing their duty to tho country. No member could suggest any reduction of native expenditure but he was immediately charged with wishing to rush into hostilities with the natives. He thought the hon member had proposed a very moderate roduotion indeed, for which he wus charged with being a firebrand. The question was — Can the colony afford these enormous expenses, or can it not ? In the face of a falling revenue, he thought there would be a great feeling of relief at the thought of reduction, because it was suspected that the Government was rather one of extravagant tendencies, and that the only alternative would bo that of increased taxation. Although they had heard a great deal about retrenchment, that retrenchment was more apparent than real, and it was now clear how the Government made their very charming balance of £990,000 of revenue against £982,000 of expenditure. He would make a few remarks upon tho passage of the Colonial Treasurer's statement which said that although there was a falling revenue that the Government was by no means responsible for that. The Government were responsible when they wero shown to bo bo largely out in their estimates ; surely they were responeibleforthat. The Government leads the House in these mattors. What did they (the members) know about them ? They trusted entirely, or almost entirely, to tho estimates of the Colonial Treasurer, and experience now proved that those estimates were excessive and not entirely to be depended upon. But supposing there had been eome different occurrences ; that instead of these estimates being altogether above the mark and the revenua not coming up to them there had been a groat increase and corresponding balances ; would the Govrenment have taken credit for that? Why, then, they would have been told of the astonishing success of the the proposals of last session. Now, what was tho secret of these estimates. It was exactly the old affair that we have heardofsooften-the borrowing of more money. It is not retrenchment, but to bo further borrowing. In one of tho returns of the financial statement it would be found that there was a sum of £520,000 for Treasury Bills. Now, what did they represent ? They represented the deficiency in revenue of the last five or six years. They represented the amount which we had expended beyond our means for the last five or six years. To this was to be added another amount, which mude a deficiency of £116,000 outstanding. The best thing we could do was to stop this kind of thing, for stop somewhere we must — this new Parliament must face it sooner or later, and it would bo better to face it now, and insist that there should be a reduction in the estimates. Ho had no hesitation in saying that the Government of the country could be as well carried out with this expenditure off as on. Tho estimates had been stated to be such us could not bo relied on, and he was of that opinion himself; there was abundant evidence that they had been carelessly prepared. He thought there had been enough said by those who. had spoken to lead tho House to the conclusion that it would be far better that tho estimates should be relegated to the Government to recast, in order that they should understand that tho House desired to see measures of economy practised in the future. Mr BUNNY said tho effect and objeot of tho motion was a want of confidence in tho Government, and he thought it was well that the House should at once know that fact, and if tho now members were dissatisfied with tho present Government let them say so on a motion explicitly stating that for its object, but not that thoy should be induced, by such a taking proposal as this, to reduce the expenditure by £50,000, to change tho Government of the day. Such a course would be tho most unwise one that could be adopted. Tho present Government had last year brought down proposals which would settle the country, introduce immigrants, start public works, and make New Zealand what it had never beon before and what it should and would be. These schomes were denounced last year by the hon member for Parnell, and thoy were told that the proposals were to bo ruinous to the country. Well, had they turned out to bo ruinous? Tho Government had in this session proposed to introduce schemes as practical safeguards, and to adopt those procautions which alone would render tho measures adopted by tho House last session completely successful. Tho Colonial Treasurer, in spite of gloomy prognostications, had gone to England, and without any difficulty got the money he asked for. And in tho face of this confidence by the people of England and elsewhere, we were to turn the Government out at tho moment when they were most successful. The people outside must think that we were merely playing at government. Why this borrowing policy, that had been so much condemned, was tho very best thing the country could do — for if a man who borrowed £5 turned it into £6 or £7, why should not this country Jdo it to ? Ho trusted the House would not consent to the motion, which was only one of want of confidence. KATENE said that as reference had been made to the Maoris, ho would say a few words. The motion, he understood, proposed to reduce the salaries of native assessors, but he did not think that that was thereal object of themotion. The object seemed to be to turn out tho Government ; that seemed to be the aim of all leading politicians. Now thoy had tho hon member ior I'imaru trying to turn out the Government,

and if Mr Stnffoi.l was on tho Government benches thoy wouhl Ikivo tho member for Kangitikei trying to tii :i him out ; they only seemed to pare about t'ip emoluments of office. (Great laughter). 11 •■ had watched the action of the present Government, and thought thoy should not, be turned out. Mr M'GILLIVRAY did not blame the Government for tho decline in tho revenue ; he foretold last session that under the existing state of tho country it would be impossible to keep up the revenue. He had great confidence in tho marvellous resources of the country, which had only to be properly and carefully worked to bring about a period of prosperity. PARATA said the question was one of throwing corn to fowls ; now that the fowls had become tame tho corn was not to be given to them. Ho thought that no reduction in tho native estimates should bo mude ; he would rather see them abolished altogether ; let them havo the lands back to manage themselves. He did not approve of this Government any more than any other ; all Governments seemed pretty much alike, and if they wished to have disputes between tho two sides lot them keep out tho Maori name altogether. Mr GILLIES could well understand why such a boastful Government should require such a bounceable advocate as Mr Bunny, who had endeavored to mislead the House by Btating, as one of the Maori members had ( said, that they were seeking for the emoluments of office, But they were not to be told what they should or what they should not do by Government whips. Mr Gillies drew attention to tho glaring discrepancy under tho head Law and Justice, as set forth in the financial statement and in the estimates for the year. The discrepancy would not, perhaps, bo apparent to new members at ft hurried glance, but ho would refer them to pages and items, so that they could compare the figures themselves. These figures showed a fictitious saving of £20,000, whereas they wero, by tho Colonial Treasurer's figures therm olves, £20,000 to tho bad ; and this year, instead of getting £50,000 from the provinces they would have to pay thorn £39,000. Nothing could characterise the statement better than the words " thimbleriggiug financing ;" there was no statement they could put their finger on and say that it was a fair and above board statement; there was a bit taken off this item and carried on to that, and a little taken off this and pub on to that, so that there was not two statements that could be found to agree. Ho did not believe in reducing men to low salaries, but he believed in paying good salaries ' to men who could do their work. Immediately the Government met with any opposition the now members were told that an attack was being made on the Native and Defence department ; but ho thought, to use a slang expression, " th.it cock would fight no longer" ; they had so often attempted to frighten the young members of tho House with that kind of terror, that it was now losing its force. Every little matter that came before the House which displeased tho Government — whether it referred to the telegraphic or to any other department — was at once mado a ministerial matter, and all diecuesiou burked. Now he thought that was very objectionable, becausa it procluded the possibility of all fair discussion in tho House on subjects where fair diecusßion was desirable. There were other discrepancies than those he had already alluded to, which had the effect of entirely misleading any person who went to the trouble of working out the figures in the estimates with the view of endeavoring to understand them ; ho would not say that they were wrong in result, but they were very misleading. Having mentioned that the Maori members wero misinformed, he desired to say that he did not suppose that the interpreter had misled them, eren unintentionally ; because, in common with all tho members of the House, he recognised that gentleman's ability, but he found that they had been misled by persons in other quarters. In tabling the motion tho desire was that the Government Bhould be in- j vited to do what thoy might have some delicany in doing unless they wero backed by the opinion of the House. They simply desired to cut off some of the large and extravagant expenditure into which they had been drifting for years past. He saw that, in accordance with the call of the Government whip, many members of the Middle and North Islands would have to vote against their consciences, because it was evident that they desired re- ' trenchment, and yet would bo forced to vote with tbe Government, because they wore told the motion was a party vote. Mr STEWART said he waa well aware there was a feeling that those who were new to the House should not express their feelings on those great questions which affected the colony as a whole, but he would speak as a representative of a portion of the population of the colony who had a right to be heard, even although they had sent to that House a representative who had never been in the House before. He spoke with pain on the matter, because he was sorry tho Government had thrown down tho glove on an occasion when thoy Bhould not have done so — when they should not have accepted any supposed challenge of a hostile nature. He had devoted himself to the study of these estimates, and he was of opinion that it was quite possible to reduce tho estimates by the amount of £50,000. To begin with, there was tbo simple item of nearly £3000 for the geological survey. If any member could show him that any single mineral had beon discovered through tho agency of Dr Hector, he would uiake no objection to the amount, but in the absence of any such testimony, he could not, without any disparagement for Dr Hector himself, vote for such an item. Then they hud the itotn of £3000 for the New Zeiland University. They did not want these peripatetic institutions ; they were merely the out-growth of local jealousy. If it could be proved to him that tho continuance of this establishment would be of any advantage to the colony ho would not have any objection to it, but would it not have been better to have devoted the sum to tho augmentation of the funds of tho Otago University. In the salaries of the resident magistrates they could save about £2000, and then they had that great item for the San Francisco line. It could also be struck out. On a subsidiary question like this, he would be sorry to have any share in turning tho Ministry out of office, but ho must aay that they had gone out of their way to seek for opposition ; it would have been much better for them to have made an attempt to reduce tho estimates bj the amount usked in this motion, and if, after an effort in that direction, they had come down to the House and said that thoy could not effect such a reduction without impairing the efficiency of the service, the House— a large majority of the members of which were undoubtedly of the belief that tho present Government was tho best they could have — would have accepted the result of their attempt, whatever it might be — even if they could only reduce by £10,000 or £15,000. In addition to tho large amount of the estimates themselves, no provision had boon made for supplementary estimates, for which last year they had to vote £132,000, and no doubt this year there would bo supplementary estimates to the amount of £150,000. Ho was euro that if the items of expenditure were passed as they stood, thoy would come back to tho House next year and find a deficit of £150,000. KATENE said he was not prompted to make his remarks, as had been suggested by Mr Gillies. Mr OREIGHTON said the Maori members had entirely misunderstood him ; his statements with regard to the Native Office referred entirely to Europeans. Mr HALL said the allusion of Mr Gillies that tho Middle Island members would be compelled to vote against their consciences could not possibly refer to him. Ho had -not assisted to place the Government in their present position, nor did he intend to turn them out by such a motion as tho present. He must distinctly state that he would voto against tho resolution because ho did not consider it a fair one. He did not consider it fair that hon members should, earn cheap reputations as

economists without, taking upon themselves tho responsibility and the trouble of pointing |,o the items by which they proposed to reduce the expenditure of the country. Ho thought Mr Creighton was most unfortunate in his statement that ho could reduce the expenditure of the native office. The gentleman who presided over that department had rendered services in all departments of tho Government — such services as could never bo repaid by the country either by words or by money. The hon gentleman (Mr Stewart) had had the courage to place his finger on certain items by which he proposed to make reductions, but Mr Creighton had utterly failed to show in a single direotion a means by which tho saving asked for in his motion was to be brought about. Ho (Mr Hall) knew by experience gained when a momber of the Government what the feeling was to be harrassed by such motions as these, and he should vote against it for that reason. Mr ROLLESTON liked neither the form of tho motion nor the observations by which it was accompanied, especially those referring to the Middle Island. He was satisfied the Middle Island would not run back from its resolution regarding the Noith Island. The cry of native and defence expenditure, if it ever was raised, had been put in the mouths of the people of the Middle Island, and he for one, would not be led away by the statement that the North Island members knew more about the matter than Southern members did. In giving his vote, he did not associate himself in any way with the cry of North Island expenditure. His vote would be given on broad grounds. The only ground on which questions could be based in the House was the ground of prudent against speculative finance. The vote he would give would be given on the broad grounds of going against finance which involved expenditure exceeding income. He thought there were sufficient facts before the House which should make it pause before they committed themselves to such a policy. Ho was strongly impressed that this session was the session in which they should reconcile the expenditure to thoir income, and that was not the direction in which the financial statement went. Though he regretted the form in which the motion had been put, and had hoped the Ministry would have met it otherwise than they had done, it was a motion for which he felt bound to vote. Mr BATHGATE, seeing that the Ministry's watohword for the session was " Retrenchment," thought they should have no difficulty in carrying out retrenchment to the extent of ten per cent on the estimates. That would be his watchword, and, irrespective of party, he would vote for any motion in that direction. One proposal that he would vote for would be the reduction of all subordinates 9 salaries to a maximum of £500 a-year. He thought also that there might be a considerable saving upon the costs of the colonial force for defence purposes. He was bound to consider the question from a local point of view, and, speaking the views of his constituents, he could state that the burdens imposed upon them by this House were altogether intolerable. It was the hope now that some change for the better would be brought about by the new Parlia-, ment, but that would not certainly be done by going beyond our income, and adding to our borrowed capital. He had another fault to find, from a local point of view. If provincial institutions were abolished to-morrow, there must be, for shires and road boards, an equivalent, if not a larger, expenditure, and the expected savings in that direotion were a delusion. While he did not oppose the general principles of the Provincial Treasurer, be must oppos"e that which, in matters of finance, would lead them upon a disastrous course. Ho wanted a fixity in these thing!. It was not the way to make progress to change, year by year, their financial arrangements, and he especially objected to those new propositions which would so materially and injuriouslyaffect the interests of the Province of Otago. From no personal enmity, or party feeling, but from a sense of the necessity for retrenchment, he supported the hon member for Eden, and he appealed to the Ministry, not to accept it as a vote of want of confidence. Mr HAUGHTON, though yielding to no member, as to a Government conducting the affairs of a country as efficiently and economically as possible, could not yield to such a motion. If hon members had retrenchment in view, that was not the time or place to carry it out. Every member had a perfect right, vote by vote, to move reductions, and in many instances they would have his support. But no Ministry could sit on these benches, and consent to a resolution of the kind. The Government could accept it in no other light than as a vote of want of confidence ; and whom were they to put in their places ? And what were tho savings to be effected? Let them clearly understand. If this was an Opposition move — and he thought it was, frem the great delight of the hon member for Collingwood — let them understand what the Opposition wanted. Where were they going to save £50,000 ? Let there be no mistake about it. The fact was that it was clearly a party move, and hon members could vote against it, however much in favor of effecting reductions on the estimates. He would certainly, and most solemnly, vote against the motion. Mr CALDER had for years been amazed at the expenditure which the Government had undertaken for the administration of the affairs of such a small colony, and he thought this new Parliament had a right to reconsider the position. He was most anxious that the Parliament should do bo, and he was desirous of voting for any motion for retrenchment, but, while he was so, he hesitated to vote for a motion the passing of which might be Berving merely the purpose of party, and did not paint to other practical results. Mr BROWN (Canterbury) could not support the resolution. Ho yielded to none on the question of retrenchment, but he thought the course proposed by tho resolution was an improper one to pursue. If the mover, or those who supported him, sought retrenchment they should endeavor to secure it in commit tee, and ho would support them ; but the present motion was an insult to the Ministry and to the good sense of the House. He would have no confidence in any Ministry that would take back their estimates and recast them as proposed, and ho hoped hon members would not recognise the motion. Mr REYNOLDS briefly replied to some of the remarks of Mr Rolleeton on the subject of " recognised leaders," and on the relations botween the North and Middle Islands, and he intimated his intention of voting against tbo motion. Mr BRANDON believed a large reduction might be made in the estimates, but the mover should have indicated the items upon which the reductions should be made, and that could be better done in committee. If the discussion would serve tho purpose of informing the Ministry of any particulars in which reductions might be effected, some good might result; otherwise he thought the time of the House had been seriously wasted. The motion involved no fair issue, and on that ground ho could not vote for it. Mr T. L. SHEPHERD conoluded his speech by stating that he did not intend to vote for tho motion. He agreed blbo that no fair issue hud been raised, and that no case had been made out as to the precise manner in which the saving was to bo effected. He believed the effect of the motion, brought forward as it had been, would be to do the Ministry a great deal of good, and no harm. Mr M'LEAN would not go then into the financial proposals of the Government, but referred to a few items which he considered objeotionable. He intended to yote on this occasion,* but against the motion. He would never approve of these side-wind motions. If there was to bo an Opposition, it should be an Opposition which, came forward with a policy. He hoped that, before the end of the session, severe pressure would bo brought on the Government, so that next year there would be retrenchment to a verj considerable extent. Mr WILLIAMSON thought that, disguise i it as they might, hon members approving of

this motion could not deny it was a motion of want of confidonco. Tho mover had called upon Northern members to follow him. Had ho waited till in committee, he was sure hon members would follow him ; but, instead of that, tho mover really meant and intended to remove the Ministry, and elevate himself and others to take their places. Niggle, carp, and haggle as he might at tho policy of the Government, his real intent was to remove those on the Government benches In that course he had certainly not secured the approval of the country. The policy of the Government had gone to tho country, and he was quite sure the country would not be satisfied with the mijerablo altompt made by the hon member on this occasion. [The hon member in a speech which was frequently applauded, nnd which occasionally caused loud laughter by its sarcastic references, defended the policy of the Government, and referred especially to the ftivorable results of their policy of defence. He replied to remarks of Mr Creighton and Mr Gillies, and concluded by expressing his assurance that enticed, led, or deluded as they might bo, no member of any spirit would see the work of the Executive thrown back on what was plainly a vote of want of confidence — at any rate an attempt to weaken confidence. He believed that a large majority would discard this untimely motion. The hon member's speech could only be properly appreciated by being somewhat fully reported, but, in consequence of the lateness of tho debate we .are compelled simply to refer to it, and to tho speeches of several other hon members.] Mr COLLINS avowed that the fact of the motion being treated as a vote of want of confidence motion would not deter hiin from voting ; it made him the more determined to do so, having no confidence in the Ministry. He voted for it both because it was a desirable motion, and because he had no confidence in the Ministry who, as soon as they had got into office, had swallowed those principles for which he had previously supported them. Mr EYES was only induced to speak on the motion to satisfy his constituents that he was nob opposed to retrenchment. He would do all he could in tho direction of retrej.chinent, but it would be altogether improper to accept such a proposal, and he intended to vote against the motion. Mr REEVES protested against the false issue raised. He thought no member would oppose any necessary and proper retrenchment ; but there had been utter failure in making out o case for such a sweeping proposal as this. The motion as it stood was simply a vote of want of confidence, and he was not prepared to vote for that. Mr WAKEFIELD spoke in favor of the motion and retrenchment. Mr E. RICHARDSON would give hia unqualified vote against the motion ; and an equally strong vote against a Ministry who would not accept it as a vote of want of confidence. Mr MACANDREW yielded to none in the desire for retrenchment, and anticipated good results from the debate, but not in the direction of carrying a vote of want of confidence in the Ministry. Mr FOX was somewhat at a loss to know what arguments to address to hon members on the debate. If hon members' minds were swayed merely by arguments in the House it would be different, but there were various places of conference in and out of the House, and there were various classes and dispositions of members who were dealt with in these conferences, according to their dispositions. As to the motion, he asked for a single precedent in which even a delay of dealing with the estimates was not received as a vote of want of confidence. Any proposed postponement for even three days, or a reference to a select committee, and other ways of opposing estimates, were invariably accepted as a vote in that direotion. He quoted several authorities showing that such was tho constitutional course to adopt. The motion which had been proposed on this occasion — and which had led to a great waste of time, although he believed it would do the Government good — was a highly unconstitutional cours*, and could only be accepted in the way it was by the Government. Referring to the speeches of Mr Stafford and of Mr Gillies ho confessed himself as vastly disappointed. In each case several errors, which had already been noticed by members, had been made. As to native affairs, while the Native Minister had a namo proverbial for modesty, he (Mr Fox) did claim some credit for what the Government had been able to do. Ho was most unwilling to detract from the energy with which the former Government bad wrought to get out of the unfortunate war into which they had blundered ; but he would read, from one of Mr Stafford's speeches, a picture of the state of things one month before the present Ministry took office, and he asked the House to contrast that picture with what now existed. The member for Timnru had spoken of the existence of a " lull " — a period, as he thought was usuallly meant, between two hurricanes. In all the evidence before them, could the House or the country for one moment agree to such a description. As to the motion which had led to this discussion there was no alternative, either in tho character of the motion or the discussion, but for the Government to accept the motion as a vote of want of confidence ; nor could the Government accept the suggestion of the member for Dunedin (Mr Buthgate) that they should adopt the plan taken in Otago, of having the estimates returned to undergo a reduction of 25 per cent (Mr Huughton : 35 per cent). No, their digestion of humble pio was notquito equal to that of the hon momber for Dunedin. The question was then put, — That the words " the Speaker do leave the chair " stand port of tho question. The SPEAKER declared the voices to be in tho affirmative. A division was called for. The following was the result : — Ayes, 42 : — Messrs Andrew, J. E. Brown, Bunny (toller), Carrington, Clark, Eyes, Farnail, Fox, Gisborne, Hall, Harrison, Haughton (teller), Henderson, Hunter, Johnston, Karslake, Katone, T. Kelly, W. Kelly, Macandrew, M'Gillivray, D. M'Loan, G. M'Lean, M'Leod, M Pherson, O'Conor, Ormond, Parata, Parker, Parker, Peacock, Poarce, Reoves, E. Richardson, Studholme, Swaneon, Taiaroa, Takamoana, Tribe, Vogel, Webster, Williamson. Noes, 15 : — Bathgate, Bradshaw, J. C. Brown, Cantrell, Creighton and Collins (tellers), Gillies, Ingles, Munro, Reid, R. Richardson, Rolleston, Stafford, Wakefield, Wood. The intimation of the result was received with loud applause and laughter. Mr CREIGHTON intimated that, in committee, he would be prepared to move £69,000 of reductions, and provincial reductions^ of £4000, without touching the San Francisco mail; and he would take divisions in committee Mr EYES asked the Premier whether the Government intended to propose a reduction of members of the Provincial Councils, or to leave the question to those Councils. Mr FOX said it was tho intention of tho Government to propoae the reductions — to bring down a bill on the subject. The House went into Committee of Supply, when the Chairman reported progress, and the House, resuming, adjourned at half-past one o'clock.