HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVI, Issue 3304, 16 September 1871, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Thubsday, Septembee 14. THE EDUCATION BILL. Mr FOX said he was gratified afc the feelings expressed towards himself and the Government. With regard to fche appointment of a Minister of Education, ifc was nofc fche intention of the Government to appoint a new Minister of Education in addition to the Ministers who already sat on the Government benches. There would be no additional expenses ; the duties would bo undertaken by a Minister in addition to the portfolio which ho already held. He altogether demurred to the view that the Minister of Education should be independent of fche Government, and should hold bis office for all time, subject to good conduct. It would place him beyond all control ; Bueh a course would be opposed to the general rule that the responsible administrators should have the control of every officer of tho State. The next point was the definition of the districts, whicb are ab present conterminous with the provincial boundaries. Hon members Vfero running away with the idea that tho provinces were to be set on their lege ugain by the erection of provincial boards. The Government wished to interfere as little as possible with the existing machinery. They I thought they would be acting very unwisely \by making any violent eruption j and if (hey had to take any division, there was none thafc they could take so easily as fche provincial boundaries. The nexfc point- was a very important one — the constitution of the boards. He thought, as far as he had been able to gather from the opinions ol hon members, that the elective was the right one, but he thoughthe saw advantages, so long as Provincial Governments existed, in bringing the boards into communication with the Provincial Executive. Reaßonß had been given to him which induced him to believe thafc the communication would be desirable, and ho proposed that the boards should consist of the Superintendent and Treasurer of each Province, and so many members, from five to twelve, elected by the school committee. They would be the connecting link between the pulse of the provinco and the echool board, and ho had reason fco believe that such a plan was not an unwise provision. He would favor the idea of a compromised board of this sort. Then, as to the school fees. There were many reasons in favour of the payment of fees. It interested the parent in the education of his children, and it was a very considerable source of school revenue. In framing Mr Poster's bill, it was found unwise to abandon them, and ifc had been decided to retain tho provision for the payment of fees. In America no school fees were charged, but he thought, on the whole, they should adopt them ; thafc either fees should be charged, at Bueh a rate as the board might appoint, or thaifc the Nelson system, which imposed an annual rate of £1 on every householder, in addition to a head rate of 5s for each child nofc exceeding four in any ono family, Bhould bo adopted. He would now approach fchafc very ticklish, and, afc fche same time, fundamental point of the bill — the subject of the aided schools ; a point on which he expected as greafc a difference of opinion, and as narrow a majority as on anj other portion of the bill ; Btill he hoped they would have a majority, because it would be most unwise to sweep them away ; it would be unjust to shut fcho door against them to the extent fchey were provided by the bill. More than that, ifc would give rise to such an amount of opposition among a large section of society, that it would render the working of their school system a3 a general, national system almost impracticable. Ifc was not a system that could be worked in tho face of a violent opposition ; it must havo a very large majority among tho people. On these grounds he hoped the aided schools would nofc fail to pass through the House. The next Berieß of claases was the conscience clauses, and fche necessity for fchem would depend on the question whether the aided schools and the Bible clauses passed ; if these conEcience clauees were thrown out, then there would be no necessity for the aided schools. If fche House passed one they would require the other. He would pass fchem over and come to the consideration of tbe Bible clause —the clause whicb prescribed that the Biblo should be read daily. Several hon members, some of whom he scarcely expected to do so after the manner in which they had expressed themselves, did object to the use of tho Bible in schools. He had endeavored to get at the reasons for objecting to the use of that book being read fco fche children in the schools, and the reasons, as far as he could understand, were three : the firsfc was the impropriety of euch a course ; the second was the unreasonableness of such a thing ; and the third was tbat it would have an injurious effecfc fco endeavor to teach children dogmatic theology. He agreed that it was even fruitless and unne cessary to attempt to instil dogmatic ideas into the minds of children of tender ages, and as far as fchafc object went he quite concurred that it was objectionable, but it did not follow that if fhe Bible were read in I the schools that it should convey ono dogmatic idea. A thousand passages might be permitted to be read with grent advantage in the presence of the most innocent minded child. Experience proved that there was very little fear of schoolmasters adopting dogmatic teaching ; they would be found to be quite content to give the reading merely — they wero nofc in the habit; .of giving dogmatic teaching — they were not likely to attempt to proselytise. Objection was made on tho ground that there were erroneous translations in the Bible, but he thought fchat entirely fell to the ground ; he had read Bishop Colenso's work, and it did nofc weigh very much with him. There wero many passages that would form the staple of a child's education, and he thought the objection a very weak one. Another objection — and as a conscientious one he regarded ifc with all respect, particularly if it were used bya futher towards his own childwas that there were passages in the Scripture which ought not to meefc tlie ear of a child. Bufc thafc was purely a matter of solection ; selections might be mado that would obviate that objection altogether. Ho could not help remarking on what he would not call hypocrisy bufc a feeling of affected delicacy in such an objection, and he confessed it was with some amazement he heard it urged by several hon members on behalf of tho children of the working classes ; tho very persons who insisted on tho giving of nothing more than a merely elementary teaching, and opposed anything in fcho shape of a classical education, and yet were, at tho same time, scraping togetber every farthing for tho purposo of giving their children this very classical education they so much objected to, or at any rate the highest education they could afford to pay for. He was sure, and he thoroughly agreed with tho hon member for the Hutfc when he made the statement, that the Bible was tho book of books, and ho trusted the House would not bo a party to prescribing that the Bible should not be read in schools. Another point on which there was a difference of opinion was as to compulsory education, and tho general opinion of tho Houee seemed to be fchat ifc was desirable if it was possible to carry it out, yet that in the iireeent state of socioty ifc would be vory difficult to enforce the observance of that portion ofthe bill, He concurred in the objection, and proposed to follow the courso adopted in England, namely, to leavo ifc to the local boards to settle whether, in each particular instance, compulsory education should be decided on or not. If the Government carried fche bill and the feeling of fche country was fchafc ifc was a good ono he knew of no reason why they should nofc carry ifc out, so fchafc ho hoped tho House would allow the compulsory clauees to stand. Then came the question of rates. A greafc difficulty rested on the fact that the different provinces had different systems. They mu6t expect thafc every portion of fche community would object to fresh taxation, and ho must confess fchafc as regarded the properfcy rate he was opposed to ifc, because it waß unjust fco throw upon the landed

estate the whole burdens of the community ; personally, he would object to its being levied solely on landed property. This matter might also bo left to the local authority in each province, although he would propose that it should be a household rate, because there was the argument in its favor that two provinces had already adopted the household rate j — Nelson and Canterbury. Mr Fox read from a return to show what, the result of a household rate would be. There were afc present in New Zealand 65,129 houses, of which, to use a Hibernianism, 2014 are tents, and that left 63,115, after deducting the tents, liable fco pay the rate, which at £1 per house would produce a corresponding amount in money. Atpresent, the total amount collected for school expenses in all the provinces was £37,672, Of course in those provinces whoro the rato was afc present paid ifc would not touch them at all. Mr Fox read the amount of school expenditure in each province for tho past year, showing the amounts, according to population, which should have been spent for school maintenance in each province, and tho actual amounts paid. Many ofthe provinces wero lamentably low, Marlborough — where thoro was only one schoolmaster, and that ono a lady — having spent only aboufc £40, while a head rate would have required tho expenditure of ovor £1000 ; while Otago, which by the same ratio need not have spent more than £15,000 had spent £18,000. From these returns, Mr Fox said ifc would be seen fchat whero tho peoplo were willing to tax themselves a sufficient amount could be raised for the educational require ments of the whole colony. Having touched upon the direction the Government would take, and fche amendments they would consent to adopt in the bill, he would leave it with tbe House, and if it were so modelled as in their opinion it would bo desirable to withdraw it, fchey would do so, and allow the peoplo of the country to discues it during the recess. He would move the House into committee on Friday next, afc half-pasfc seven o'clock. The bill was then read a second timo. Feiday, Septembee 15. The Speakee took tho chair at half-past two o'clock. NELSON GAS DIM. This bill was committed, reported without amendment, read a third time, and passed. ME3SAGB FROM HIS EXCELLENCY. The SPEAKER anuounced tho receipt of Message No. 2 from His Excellency, transmitting the Dunediu and Port Chalmers Railway Bill, with an amendment adding a new clause which stated thafc the gauge of the railway should be 3ft 6in instead of 4ffc B£i". The amendment was agreed to and fcho clause added to tho bill petitions. Mr Reynolds, Mr Harrison, Mr G. M'Lean, Mr Bathgate, and Mr Reeves, presented petitions, which were ordered to lie on tbe table. PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE. Mr T. KELLY brought up the report of the Petitions Committee on the petition of Tupanga, of Auckland, complaining of European interference with the foreshore at fche Thames ; the committee reported that the matter set forth was settled by the terms of tho treaty of Waitangi. Also, tho report of the committoe upon tho petition of 255 laboring men and others of fche city of Dunedin, praying tho House to pass a measuro regulating fche periods of payment of workmen by contractors ; the committee recommended fche petition fco fche favorable consideration of the Houbo. Also, the report of the committee on the petition of Francis Williams, stating that an act was passed in 1868 whereby he became entitled to select;, subject to conditions, a certain portion of land, that from various causes he has not mado the selection, and praying that he may be enabled to do so ; the committoe recommended tbat the petitioner should be permitted to make selection of his land within fcwelve months. Also, the report of the committee on the petition of E. Holliday, widow of the late John Holliday, a discharged soldier from hor Ma< jesty's 57th Regiment, praying that sho may have a grant of fche land her husband would have been entitled to ; the committee reported fchafc fche petitioner's husband had nofc complied with the regulations applying to the selection of land by discharged soldiers, and they could not, therefore, recommend the petition to tho favorable consideration of the House. Also, the report of the committee on the petition of J. M'Evoy, a discharged soldier from her Majesty's 58th Regiment, praying for a grant of land as a discharged soldier; the committee's report was similar to that in the last case. MAP EOOM. Mr WOOD brought up the report of tho committee appointed to select a suitable room in which to exhibit the various railway plans in the possession of tho House. The committee had selected a room which, at a slight expense, could be adapted to the ncceßsary requirements, and he wished fco know if fche Government were willing to incur tho expense. Mr GISBORNE eaid the Government, would see fchafc the work was carried out. PAPEES. Mr GISBORNE laid on tho table a number of papers and returns. SECOND BEADINGS. The Agricultural Lien Act Amendment Bill, the Jury Bill, tho Canterbury Forest Plantation Encouragement Bill, the Sale of Poisons Bill, and tho Carrington Land Grant Bill, were read a second timo. COMMITTALS. The Wellington Special Settlements Bill, tho Wellington Waste Lands Regulations Amendment Bill, ahd the Otago Settlements Bill, passed through committee. The amendI ments in the first named bill wero ordered to be considered on next sitting day, and tho two j latter were read a third time and passed. PUTTING BACK TnE CLOCK. Mr FOX moved that a copy of fche affidavits of Sir David Monro and Mr D. M. Luckie, filet? in the Supreme Court, Nelson, in the cuso of Monro v Luckie and Collins, be laid on tho tablo of the Hou^e. He also asked the leave of the Houso to lay on tho tablo an affidavit by George Maurice O'Rorke, Esq, relative to fcho putting back of the House clock by Sir David Monro, the then Speakor of this Houso, during a division in tho session of 1862, and extracts from cotomporary newspapers reporting the debate which ensued upon a motion made by Mr Fox, and seoonded by Mr Curtis, rolativo to the putting back of the clock on that occasion ; together with an extract from the journals of this House, recording the said motion so mado by Mr Fox. The motion was agreed to. CIVIL SEBVIOE COEEESPONDENT3. Mr HARRISON moved that any regulations issued in pursuance of the resolution of tho Houbo on 20th July, 1870, defining tho position of officers in the civil service wifch respect to their connection with tho press aB correspondents or otherwise, bo laid upon the tablo. Mr GISBORNE said that as tho regulations wero similar to thoso of Victoria, thero would bo no necessity for laying them on the tablo. THE COUNTY OF WESTLAND. Mr HARRISON asked leave to postpono his resolutions, on account of the non-arrival of certain paperß and documents which were necessary to tho case. "WELLINGTON BECLAIMED LAND BILL. This bill was committed, for tho purposo of considering amendments made by tho Select Committeo. The amendments wero agroed to and their consideration ordered for Tuosday. SAVINGS BANKS. MrT. L. SHEPHERD movod thut a bill bo introduced to compel thd annual publication by the Government and privato banks in the colony of New Zealand, of the namcs_ of depositors und tho amount of their deposits, tho principal or interest of which has not been claimed for a period of threo yeai'B prior to such publication ; euch bill to apply to unolaimed deposits and interest prior to the passing of such bill. Mr BATHGATE thought tho hon member should postpone the debate until a subsequent debate, in whioh the whole system of public

accounts would be brought under nofcice. He thought fche bauks had no right to continue tho practice referred fco by the hon member. Ho thought if a person died in fche manner described by tho hon member, the whole of tho money should go to the Orown, and not bo appropriated by a private individual. By our laws, if a person picked up a five-pound note, having some knowledge to whom it belonged, and did net return it, he was liable to be prosecuted, and why Bhould these institutions bo permitted to appropriate unclaimed deposits. Mr YOGEL hoped the hon member would withdraw his motion on the assurance that inquiry would bo made into the matter. Mr M'LEOD thought tho Ministry might go a little further in the matter. The sooner the banks were subject to some such inquiry the bettor. He looked upon it as a serious matter. Mr G. M'LEAN thought Mr Bathgate, who had some experience of banking matters, should have given fchem aome instances. In his experience he did nofc know any such cases. Ho thought fchey wero nofc bound to accept the statements of anonymous writers. He thought tho motion was of no use whatever. Mr STAFFORD thought in cases of running accounts where persons were drowned such funds might remain in the possession of tho banks for evor. He knew of a case in which a sum of money had been lying for 23 years in ono of the banks, and had it not been for an accident ifc would never been called for. In another case, in which a sum of money had beon paid into a bank for fche purpose of erecting a monument, a eimilar circumstance had occurred, and had ifc nofc been for his recollections of [the circumstances neither nf thoso accounts would ever have beon heard of. Mr WOOD saw no necessity for interference in the matter at all, Mr Murray, Mr ". Peacock, and Mr Swanston spoke in fuvor of the motion, the latter gentleman stating that for the protection of diggers and seamen such a provision was highly necessai*y. Tho motion was then withdrawn. MESSAGE FEOM EIS EXCELLENCY. The SPEAKER announced that he had received a message from His Excellency transmitting the Estimates for fche ensuing year. MAOBI EEPEESENTATION. KARAITIANA TAKAMOANA moved, That, in tho opinion of this House, ifc is desirable — 1. That the native race should be represented in the other branch of tho Legislature. 2. Thafc a Maori should be appointed a member of the Executive Council of the colony, to advise with the Minister for native affairs. 3. That the Maori Representation Acfc should be amended, and the number of Maori membors inoreased fco twelve, giving threo Maori representatives to each of tho present Maori electoral districts ; and thafc Europeans as well as Maoris should have fche privilege of voting at elections of Maori members of the House of Representatives. The hon member delivered a lengthy address, which concluded as follows : — I say, let us be equal in this House. Do not let us be excluded from anything thafc may bo done in this House. lam not able to enter into tho subject at any great length. This is what I havo to cay on tho present occasion. Mr M'LEAN thought it Was gratifying thafc throughout the difficulties they had experienced through the North Island that thoy found these people coming forward with such propositions to be heard on equal terms in tho House. The natives had frequeutly expressed a desire that they Bhould be placed on more equal terms, and the Govornment were of opinion thafc the firsfc parfc of fche proposal should bo entertained. The Government were nofc prepared to say thafc they Bhould have no Maoris in fche executive, although they had of late been very much in the habit of soliciting the advice of some of the intelligent chiefs, who must necessarily know more aboufc nativo matters than other people. The Government did nofc consider it desirable fchat tho present numbor of representatives should bo increased, because they would bo out of proportion to the other members. Tho Government did not deem it desirablo thafc the Europeans should be permitted to voto for Maori members, because they had the privilege of returning their own members.

Mr M'LEOD thought the experiment of Maori representation, though at firsfc nofc satisfactory, was now highly encouraging. He thought it highly important that they should bo looked upon in tho most friendly spirit. If they could impress upon them the necessity of coming to the House with their grievances it would Biivo much difficulty outside. When they found that they were treated honorably and liberally they would have greater confidenco in the deliberations of tho House. Thore was a strong desire among thorn to learn English, and they wanted to sco a blending of the races ; they wanted to see tho childron of the whites going to school with their own. He thought the time would como when there would be such a fusion of the races as that thoy would see half-caßtes and quadroons occupying tho highest positions in the land. He attributed many of the old evils to the action of tbe missionaries in maintaining a distinction between the races.

WI PAR AT A thought all tho resolutions should bo carried. If tbey woro agreed to tho Maoris outside would begin to believe that they were on an equality of rights. Tho Government siid now that thoy would agree to fche consultation with Maori chiefs, bufc why did nofc thoy agree to do so long ago. He considered it a wrong thut Europeans should nofc voto afc fche election of Maori membors, nor had they been consultod at the formation of the Maori Land Court. He asked them not to bo afraid of the addition fco fcheir number on account of fche expense ; if it wero a question of European representation there would be no thought about that. If they would nofc givo them largo representation let tliem toke their children and educate them.

Mr HAUGHTON thought there was a marked contrast between the present Maori representatives of this and the lasfc Parliament. Ho would support the first part of the resolutions. Ho thought the old representatives of the Maori race should, by reaßon of their parliamentary experience, have been culled to -the Upper Houso. He thought; fche Maoris iv tho colony wero quite as well represented us tho miners. The remarks aboufc education, ho thought, were worthy of consideration, and should receivo tho attention of the Government.

Mr FOX knew that there was not in the Maori race a more shrewd or able man than the mover of tho resolutions, aud ho regretted that through basbfulness he had nofc adduced Borne stronger reason. He thought from what had passed, tho Government would be justified in appointing members to the Uppor House ; but tho difficulty of selection would be very great ; but he had no doubt; tho Defence Minister would be able to make' an advantageous selection. He looked upon the appointment of a member to the Executive from tho Maori race as a very important matter, and one that would bo productive of great good j but again thero was tho difficulty of selection. He thought there was no necessity either for un increase of the number of representatives, or that ihey should be selected by Europeans and Maoris combined.

Katene and Taiaroa mado able addresses in support. Tbe first part of tho motion was then agroed to, and tho remainder negatived. Wo are compelled for want of space to hold over the remainder of our report. Notices of motion havng beon givon, tho Houso adjourned at twenty-flvo minutes past twelve.