HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVI, Issue 3303, 15 September 1871, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

THUK3DAY, SffriBMBEB 14. The Speaker took the Chair at half-past two o'clock. NELSON GAS Bill.. Thia order of the day was again postponed. PETITIONS. Mr E. RICHARDSON presented a petition from the mayor and councillors of the borough of Lyttelton. WELLINGTON SPECIAL SETTLEMENTS BILL Mr CURTIS brought up the report of the Wa9te Lands Committee on the above bill, and it wns ordered to be committed next day. Also, the report of the committee on the Wellington Waste Landß Bill, and it -was ordered to be committed to-morrow. Also, the report of the committee on the Otago Waste Lands Bill, which was ordered to be committed tomorrow. Mr HALL brought up the report of the committee on the Dunedin Waterworks Bill, which was ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday. PTTBLIO PETITIONS COMMITTEE. Mr T. KELLY brought up the report of the Petitions Committee on the petition of William Rogers, of Maketu, praying for relief in consequence of having had his arm shattered through his gun accidentally exploding while on patrol duty in the Bay of Plenty j the committee recommended that the case was deserving of consideration, and recommended a pension of one ehillling per day. Aleo, the report of the committee on the petition of 24 members of the Licensed Victuallers' Association of Greymouth, complainingof the unsuitability of the Westland Publio House Act, 1869, and praying that a new act may be passed: the committee recommended special legislation by the Assembly. Also, ,'tho report of the committee on the petition of 187 Catholics of the Wellington Province, praying that the Catbolic body may receive from tho general fund a certain proportion for the support of their denominational schools j the committe reported that as there was a bill before the House dealing with the subject, they did not deem it necessary to offer any opinion upon the matter of the petition. Other petitions, to which were appended asimi* lur recommendation, were'read to the House ; they were from certain Aoman Catholics of Canterbury; from 103 Roman Catholio inhabitants of Alexandra and Waikour.ifcij from 124 Roman Catholio inhabitants of Westport, and Addison's Flat; from 110 Roman Catholic inhabitants of Southland j from 80 Roman Catholic Inhabitants of Stafford, Waimea; from 279 Roman Catholic inhabitants of Charleston and Brighton, Province of Nelson, Also the report of the committee on the petitions of 254 persons in in Turakina and Rangitikei, in favor of a Permissive Bill, for the suppression of drunkenness and crime ; from 32 female inhabitants and 62 electors and other inhabitants of Port Albert, Auckland ; 1006 inhabitants of Wellington ; the committee recommended ihe in» troctuction of a measure for the better regulation of the sale of spirituous liquors. INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL. Mr T. L. SHEPHERD asked the Premie* whether the Government proposed to take stepe for the establishment of an industrial school as a refuge and means of education for destitute and deserted'children in the colony P Mr FOX Baid it was not the intention of the Government to do so. Local bodies had ample means for making the necessary proYX* sio», and the matter would be left to them. PETITION OF BEY. ME GHAOE. Mr CLARK asked the Colonial Secretary if the Government intended taking any action in the case of the Rey. Mr Grace, with a r'wvr to give effect to the recommendation of the Public Petitions Committee ? Mr GISBORNE said the Public Petition* Committee had given reasons why. in their opinion, there should be a special claim, but unless the House expressed come opinion the Government would not (eel itself bound to act on the recommendation. B.M. COTJBT, AKAROA. Mr RHODES asked the Colonial Secretary whether it was the intention of the Government to extend the jurisdiction of tho Resident Magistrate of Akaroa to £100 ? Mr GISBORNE said the highest amount of R.M. jurisdiction was £100, and that was only extended (o those towns where the business demanded it. The Government thought the jurisdiction at Akaroa might be extended to £50, and would take steps to have that allowance made. PAPBBB. Mr GIS BORNE laid on the table a number of papers and returns. CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGES. Mr MACANDREW: The resolutions which I am about to propose have been so long on the order papor that I have no doubt those lion, members of this House who take any interest in the matter —and I regret that there ore not more present —have already made up their mindß fully upon the subject. I believe, therefore, that nothing I may say, or any other member may say, is likely to influence a Bingls vote. Nevertheless, it is proper and fitting that I should endeavor to state the reasons which hate impelled me to submit those proposals —reasons which I venture to hope will warrant this House in acceding to them. In stating those reasons, I shall endeavor to be as concise as possible. I have no doubt that as a private member I shall be open to the charge of presumption in proposing resolutions of tbiß important nature, giving rise to a question that involves the greatest organic change that has ever been proposed in the history of the colony, a question which ought more properly to have been taken up by the Government of the day —an organic change which cannot receive practioal effect without the concurrence and co-operation of the Executive Government. However, failing the Ministry of the day taking up this question, I think, that although there are many hon. members in this House who could deal with tho subject with more ability, and make a much longer speech upon it than I can pretend to do, at the same time I feel that no private member has a better right to introduce the question than myself. And for these reasons. I urn one of the three oldest members of this House. I may soy one of the three original members. I am also an old colonist, who nearly a quarter of a century ago in England and subsequently in tho colony took a somewhat active pust in the political agitation which led to oui' present consitution, —that constitution which I now propose to modify nnd adapt to the altered circumstances of the colony. It will bo seen that I do not propose to interfere with tho institutions of the Northern Island, or the Provincial Governments there, and thia for various reasons —one is that I nm led to believe that the Northern Island is not ripe for provincial fusion, if I muy bo allowed to use the expression. Another reason is that as a southern member I do not profess to know what are the peculiar wantßaud requirements of the Northern Island. For example take the native difficulty. That is a question which members from the South necessarily know very little about. I think, therefore, that in dealing with this subject it is better that I should abstain from interfering iv the affairs of that part of tho colony. It appears to me that this native difficulty must necessarily influence any proposition respecting constitutional changes iv the Northern Island. How fur tho native difficulty may point to the expediency of a transfusiou of the Northern Island provinces or the reverse, I nm unable to cay. I Bh.aU, therefore, confine my proposals to the provinces of tho Middle Island. What I now propose is —That the time haß arrived when instead of five provincial '.legislatures in tho Middle Island, we can manage very well with one. In other words, I think tho forty-fivo members who represent tho Middle Island constituencies, in this House, together with one executive officer, can perform the whole duties whioh now appertain to the Superintendent, of Otago; the Superintendent and Council of Canterbury ; the Superintendent and Council of Nelson} the Superintendent and Counoil

of Marlborough ; and the Chairman and Council of the County Council of Westland. Z maintain that the duties which are now performed by five administrative, and 133 legislative functionaries in the Middle Island can bo as well, if not better, performed by one administrative and 45 legislative function *ries, while the pecuniary saving effected will bo very considerable. Perhaps I may bo allowed in order that the House may judge for itself as to the facts of the case to lay before hon members the following figures. At present the County Council of Westland consists of a Chairman and eight members. Tho Provincial Legislature of Nelson consists of a Superintendent and nineteen Provincial Councillors. Mariborough Council consists of a Superintendent and twenty Provincial Councillors. Canterbury of a Superintendent and thirtynine Provincial Councillors ,- and lust, and not least, the Otago Legislature consists of a Superintendent and forfcy-soven Provincial Councillor ; making altogether, for the Middle Island, a law-making power of 138 individuals, which I now propose to reduce to forty-six. Now I shall, if tho House will permit, call attention to the relative cost of tho present system, and that which might be expected under the one I propose to substitute. I find by the last official return mude by tho Begistrur- General, under tho authority of the Geueral Government, that tho County Council of Westlund costs £3072 annually ; tho ProI vincial Legislature of Nelson, £3316 ; the Province of Marlborough tho very modest sum of , £912; tho provincial legislatureof Canterbury, \ £4,155 ; and tho provincial legislature of aOtago £10,919; making a total expenditure ykrf £22,374. Those figures represent merely the cost of the legislative and executive bodies in the Middle Island, which by tho resolution before tho House I propose to consolidate and merge into one Bingle legislature. It will be observed that tha most costly of (,he provincial legislatures is that of tho Province of Otago. However, when we reflect upon the extent of the territory, tho widely scattered goldfields, the corapleto organisation that exists under responsible Government with all its ramifications and the multifariousness of its duties, the cost of tho provincial legislature, large as it may appear, is not much, if any, more in proportion than that of the other provinces. Howevor, be this as it may, I feel sure that by the proposals I am now about to BuHmit for adoption tho legislative and executive functions of the provincial legislature of the Middle Island can be performed for from £3,000 to £4,000 a year. I have not the least doubt that if fairly and honestly managed, that sum will meet all tho necessary expenses of the Provincial Legislature of the Middle Island. I take it that that sum would be amply covered by tho Baying which will accruo in tho different departments of the Government, from their being brought under one head, instead of being as at present under five different legislatures. In the waste lands and other departments, considerable saving might be effected, savings quite equal to the cost incurred in maintaining the Executive and Provincial Council upon the scale which theso resolutions indicate. Assuming this to be the case, wo shall have a clear saving with respect to the political machinery of the Government alone in the Middle Island of upwards of £22,000 a year, which, of course, hon members will at once see is equal to a capital sum of nearly half a million sterling, being absolutely £440,000, at 5 per cent. That is a more Startling point of view as regards this question thau it is usually looked at from. I shall now tell you what I shall propose to do with this £22,000 a year. I would propose to construct an inland water and railway communication from Lake Wakatipu, in the Province of Otago, to Cobden, in the Province of Nelson. If honorable members will take the troublo to enquire into the matter, they will find that fche length of this line of communication from one point to the other would be Borne 300 miles, of which 55 miles would be water communication. Although it is not strictly bearing upon the point, it rnny, at the Bame time, be interesting to give the exact figures, and if the House will allow me I sh ill do so. Assuming that the measuves of this session will result in the construction of the Kelson and Cobden line, and the line from Winston to Kingston, wo shall have Kingston as the starting point. From Kingston to EVankton by water is twenty-five miles ; from Frankton on Lake Wakatip to Pembroke, on Lake Wanaka, the distance by land will bo sixty miles via Cromwell, taking the distance, not as the crow flies, but as the line of railway j would go j then from Pembroke, on Lake Waaaka, to Makaroa, thirty miles by water ; from I Makaroa to Hokitika there will be 160 miles of land communication. That distance might j be, I think, lessened, but I shall say that it is about 160 miles. From Hokitika to Cobden the distance is twenty-five miles, which would j comple the entire line of communication. I put it therefore to any man of common sense, given on the one hand five Provincial Executives, and five provincial talking shops, and on the other an unbroken inland water and railway communication from Foveaux Straits to Blind Bay, which would be most for the interest of tho colony, which he would prefer. "Look on this picture, and on that," and you will agree with xng that there cannot be the slightest comparison. lam perfectly satisfied that this 300 miles, that is, about 245 miles of railway and 55 of water communication, can, with our new ideas of tho cost of railway construction, be constructed for half a million sterling from one point to the other. However, Sir, it is' not upon the mere ground of pecuniary saving that I would urge these proposals. There are many conceivablociroumetances under which we may effect great pecuniary saving but sacrifice at tho same time the public interest. I maintain by these proposals not only shall we secure a very great pecuniary saving but tho public interest will be Tory greatly promoted. lam persuaded that the Middle Island will be much more efficiently governed by one legislature than it can be by five — instead of the present diversity, we shall have an assimilation of tho laws. I have always looked upon it as absurd that in such a comparatively small territory we should have five different land laWB, and five different laws upon every subject from a dog tax to an auctioneer's license. I believe that the Middle Island will be much more efficiently governed by one local legislature peculiar to itself than it. can be by five different local legislatures, or by one legislative body situated at Wellington, a legislature with totally different functions devolving upon it. I am not prepared to deny that in the course of years it may not be better to have one central legislature in Wellington, that is to say, after we have got rid of some additional millions of waste lands. When tho population iB doubled and the county system is fairly in operation, then possibly one legislature may Buffice. But, sir, I hold thit no county system can bo satisfactory winch emanates from this House, and no county system can be satisfactory which does not emanate from the Provincial Council. I hold that if thoae resolutions are carried into effect, the first and principal duty that will devolve upon the Middle Island Provincial Council will be the division of the island into counties, and the constituting throughout its length and breadth of local boards, boards which will ultimately, to a great extent, if not altogether, supersede the Provincial Council itself. I may Btate that in Otago we aro now taking action in this direction. If the ordinance which was passed last session receives His Excellency's assent thero will be in Otago some thirty or forty local boards, possessing this marked distinction, viz., that they will bo honorary and unpaid. If that ordinance is passed we shall have county boards in Otago which will take charge not only of district roads but main ronds, education, and I hope the police also. I need not dcßoant upon the value of our endeavoring to get rid of the mercenary element in our political organisations. I take it tbat these unpaid boards •will be a very grest improvement upon the present system of Provincial Councils frith their honorariums «nd to forth. I shall

not occupy the time of the House further upon this subject. Tho resolutions are sufficiently intelligible, and I think they carry their own explanation upon the face of them. I shall state, howevor, gonornlly, some of the advantages which will accrue to the Middle Island if these resolutions bo earned. One of these is, that the railways proposed to bo constructed would bo administered by the Provincial Council. I am sure that they can be much more advantageously and economically constructed under a provincial than they can be under a colouial administration. I think our past exporionce goes to prove that ; and then as to the question ns to where those railways arc to bo constructed, and when constructed — no doubt, in this Assembly wo shall have a regular scramble, inasmuch as we want them simultaneously all over tho colony. I say that these questiens will bo much more satisfactorily determined by a Provincial Council in tho Middle Island free from the Northern Island element. I think that this proposal should commend itself to the common sense of hon members. There is another advantage that will bo gained by this proposal : we shall have practical insular separation, 60 far as that can be had, without impairing or destroying tho unity of tho colony. I take it that one of the great objections that will be raised to the proposal by its opponents will bo that it will result in the destruction of the unity of the colony— a result the very reverse of which { will bo tho case. Another great advantage would be that the powers of the provincial legislatures would bo defined, and we should no longer be obliged to corno here session after session for validation acts. The ultra vires would bo knocked on the head, i I think we have been very much indebted to the lawyers for all that wo have heard of the •ultra vires of Provinciul Councils. If these resolutions are carried they will do away with all that, and we shall havo but one provincial statute book instead of five as at present. It will be observed that. I propose in those resolutions to givo full constituent and absolute powers of legislation to tho Provincial Council, that is to say, powers of legislation upon all matters affecting tho peace, order, and good Government of the Middle Island excepting questions purely federal. The exceptions are as follows : — Tho imposition or regulation of Customs Duties. . . Tho establishment or abolition of Civil or Criminal Courts, or alteration of the Criminal The regulation and establishment of Postal and Telegraphic - communication. Regulating tho Law of Bankruptcy and Insolvency. Regulating Marriiges. Affecting Lands of the Crown. Regulating the course of inheritance of real or personal Property, or affecting the Laws reli<ting to wills. It will be found that these rmbody most of the subjects, contained in the Constitution Act, from which Provincial Councils are debarred from dealing. The only subject of great importance which is omitted, is that of banking currency. This, as you are aware, Provincial Councils are prohibited from dealing with, but I hold in regard to this and other matters of local concern that it is absurd for the Colonial Legislature to consider itself as alone qualified to deal. Then Sir, another very great advantage from these proposals would be having one uniform land law for the Middle Island. At present you are aware that the land laws of the colony aro inexplicable, oven to ourselves, and what a stranger can make of them it is difficult to imagine. It iB ridiculous that New Zealand, a mere speck, should havo nino land laws. I think the Imperial Parliament made a great blunder in handing over tho lands to the colony. They would have been much better administered had they been retained by the Imperial authorities. At all events, I believe in the ax : om of Earl Ruseell, " that all the colonial waste lands should be regarded as the patrimony of the poor man at home." That blunder having been committed, we committed another, in that, after getting the land, we did not divide it amongst ourselveß, as some provinces that shall bo nameless pretty much did. It will be observed that in these resolutions I do not indicate where the seat of Government in the Middle Island should be. That is a matter that should be left to the Provincial Council. At all events, I take it that the first Provincial Council should meet at Christchurch, bui wherever the scat of the Executive Government may be, I think that for some years the Provincial Council should be peripatetic. I think when the railway system comes to bo extended throughout the island there will be very little difficulty about that. There can be no doubt as to the groat benefits that would result to the country by its legislators having a personal knowledge of the different localities whose interests they are called upon to deal with. I hold that it is impossible to make laws— much more to ad- ■ minister satisfactorily the affairs of the country ! without local knowledge. But I look upon it that if this proposal is carried, the Provincial Council should meet alternately at Neloon, Blenheim, Christchurch, Dunedin, Invereargill, and Hokitika. Sir, I shall ask the House for leave to withdraw motion No. 11, which proposes that tho colonial legislature of New Zealand, as at present constituted, shall be remodelled. That subject is one that perhaps lmd better be left to be dealt, with by itself. When the time arrives I shall therefore 36k the leave of the House to withdraw it. For my own part I have strong views upon that question. I have no doubt that if those proposals assume a tangible shape, tho reform of the colonial legislature will follow as a matter of course. I think there cannot be the slightest doubt that the great curse of this country is that we are over- governed— we aro vastly overgoverned, — there is great room for simplification and reduction to the manifest advantage of tho colony. Sir, I do not intend to occupy the time of the House much further at present, as the resolutions bear, on the face of ! them, their own explanation. I propose to put them seriatim, so as to afford the House an ! opportunity of altering or modifying them as they think fit. I am not wedded to any particular cast-iron idea, or to any particular mode in which the resolutions should be carried outj I merely wish to see the principle carried out in some shape or other, namely, that we shall substitute forty-oix legislative functionaries for the 138 who now legislate for the Middle Island. I may say that I have carefully abstained from touting or buttonholeing anybody upon tho subject, as I hold that to pursue such a course would be an insult to the judgment and common sense of every member of this House, and who is i presumed to exercise those qualities in reviewing the question ; for these reasons I was particularly careful to abstain from anything of the sort. But I may express my earnest hope that these resolutions will commend themselves to the representatives, or majority of tho representatives, of this House, and particularly to the representatives of the Middle Island ; and if I should receive thoir support I hope that tho representatives of tlio NorthIslnnd will not withhold theirs. I beg the Northern Island members to remark particularly that I am in no way whatever proposing to interfere with the North lelnnd Provinres i they will remain bb they aro. and their powers, so far as this House is concerned, will remain undisturbed in relation to matters of purely federal concern. I would Bay, further, that whatever difference of opinion there may exist in the minds of hon members from tho Middle Island as to the expediency of sinking their provinciul nationality, I think there can be no difference of opinion aB to the direct advantages contained in the proposals, unless upon merely sentimental grounds. It is a fact that we are to save £22,000 a year by these proposals, and that, to my mind, weighs down a vast amount of sentiment. It should be remembered, also, that as an Otago man, I am pacrificipg the prejudices of years. lam sacrificing that Otago nationality which I have long cherished; but I do it for what I conceive to bo of infinitely more importance, what will be more advantageous to the Province of Otago, more

advantageous to tho Middle Island, and better for tho colony as a whole ; and I hope the hon members from tho Middle Island will view tho matter in tho sbeuo spirit. I think I may fairly claim, on personal grounds, that if these resolutions are carried, no individual member of the Houso will bo making a greater sacrifice than myself: I do not mean a sacrifice of eelf-imterest, but of ambition ; because there can be no doubt that te bo tho Superintendent of tho largest and most important division in the colony — however that office may bo depreciated in this House — is a high and honorable position, 1 and a worthy object of ambition. If these resolutions are carried, I am cutting my own throat politically; but that I consider as nothing compared with the advantages which must result to the Middle Island and to the colony if those proposals aro carried into effect. Having thus given to the young members of this House a good example of brevity, T shall conclude by moving the resolutions standing in my name. A discussion arose as to whether tho resolutions should be considered as a whole, or discussed seriatim in a committoo of the whole House, when it was decided that the question should be— That the House go into committee to consider the resolutions. Mr FOX then announced tnat the Government could not Bupportthe resolutions, as they were entirely antagonistic to tho policy of tho' Government, as developed in the financial statement of the Colonial Treasurer, an') to the measures which were passed by the House last year. [We will endeavor to find space for Mr Fox's jpoech to-morrow.] Mr HALL quite agreed with tho mover of tho resolutions that we wero suffering from too much government. We spent too much money upon it and too much time, neither of which we could spare, but ho did not think the remedy proposed by the hon. gentlemnn tho right one ; it was worse than the present dieease. What wo wanted wus one government for the whole colony, varied by local bodies for tho administration of local affairs. The hon. gentleman did not propose that ; ho proposed that we should have three governments for tho colony, with local bodies for administering local affairs. Tho hon. member proposed to retain the provincial form of government, but his resolutions maintained a mysterious silence upon the subject of North Island government. We should have, therefore, instead of, as at present, one government, which wns gradually, surely, and very properly absorbing the management of all those affairs which affect the colony as a whole— wo should have instead, permanently established, one government for a certain portion of those things which affect us as a colony as a whole, and two other governments, for othor purposes, in which case it would be a worso form of government than hon members have hitherto complained of. The administration of the affairs of the Middle Island by one body would bo very objectionable to that island, and wo should havo Shire Counpils in addition. It was therefore in accordance with reason that tho proposal, instead of reducing the government, would complicate and increase it. That was in complete opposition to his ideas, because he was in favor of simplifying and cheapening the government of the colony. The hon gentlemen with whom ho had been associated had been working in that direction for Borne years past, by tho constitution of shire or county councils, and he was only sorry that they had not had the assistance of tho hon. gentleman ; but he did not think such a state of things was to be brought about in the way some people were in tho habit of tnlking about—" by the sweeping away of provincial institutions." They might sweep away provincial institutions, but they would not sweep away that which kept provincial institutions going. It had always been the object of himself and his colleagues to endeavor to centralise the Government as much as possible, and to put in the hands of these local bodies — the city councils or Bhire councils — the administration of those local affairs which were always best administered locally. He was glad to find, and he congratulated his hon. friends on the fact, that force of circumstances was driving them into doing a thing which sotce years ago they would not assist him in doing. But he did not wißb them to go in that direction by vast changes ; vast changes made too suddenly were not made wisely. The peoplo did not care to have theßO alterations hurried upon them ; the people must go with yon. Therofore. he was satisfied, especially since the delivery of the financial (statement, with the progress tbat had been made by the Government, and was not willing to accept this invitation of the hon. member for Port Chalmers. With regard to the scheme, he had one word or two to say on that subject. The general objection he had to it was this — that it did not provide in any way for what the hon. gentlemen so much dreaded— a general scramble. The hon. gentleman dreaded that very much; so did he. But how does he propose to remedy it ? By giving the power to a portion of tho members of that House, who would be sitting in another place. Would they not scramble there ? Ho rather thought they would ; and his objection was that the Canterbury members would be at a loss in that scramble. Tho Otago members would be very nearly equal to all the others, and the Westland members would hold the balance of power ; they would be in the most J powerful position any body of men over held. He thought that was not a desirable state of j things, looking at it from a Canterbury point of view, and the sketch of tho railway matters given by the hon gentleman did not increase his confidence in the matter. What waß the great boon in the scheme ? According to that scheme they would have a railway connecting the province of Otago with tho West Coast, going through the Southern Alps, to be done at a cost of £440,000. Canterbury, Marlborough, and Nelson are entirely left out of that scheme. That was ono of the fruits which the hon. gentleman hold out to them, and that really seom&d to be the only kind of fruit fcney would reap. The Canterbury members had been invited to express their views, and for that reason he had given the hon. member his ideas. He objected to tho Bcheme, on the ground that it left out of consideration altogether tho provision made by the Government for the construction of works in both islands. Another objection ho had wus that thero was an unfortunate absence of anything specific about tho Seat of Government. One member thought it ohould be at Christchurch, and another thought it should bo peripatetic. Ho had a very strong impression that neither of these suppositions wus correct, but that it would bo in a place where it would not be desirable to hold it. He would only say, in addition, that the hon. gentleman attempted to show that a very large saving would bo effected by tho adoption of this plan. He certainly showed the cost of the Provincial Governments, but ho did not think he had proved to the House the saving that would be made by the carrying of the motion. He had asserted that tho business of forty-five members could be carried on by three or four. If tho hon member would permit him to say so, without offenco, ho thought such a thing entirely visionary. In conclusion, tho hon. member said he entirely recognised tho necessities of many parts of the Middle Island, and he would work together with Middle Island members for the recognition of those necessities, but he could not on that account assent to the proposition of the hon gentleman— a proposition in regard to which he had not previously coDßulted any Canterbury member —had not token any Bteps to ascertain that they would meet the views of any port of that province — and he must not bo disappointed to find that they did not meet the views of the members of that part of the colony. He would voto against going into committee on the resolutions.

Mr ROLLESTON said the resolutions as they stood would not by any means meet his views in respect to the question before the Houbo. At the same time he was one of those who, lost session, when hs heard th? financial propo&ale of the Colonial TreaB\u«r felt, and felt tery strongly, tbat the

steps he proposed would prove disastrous to the colony; but the safeguards, of which they had intimation in the Treasurer's recent statement, would tend to prevent the great scheme ending, aa he had anticipated it would, end in ruin to the colony. He was one of those who always maintained that the unity of the colony waß a thing that should be most dear to himself and to all public men of New Zealaud, and he would not lend himself to any step which would sooner or later, tend to interfere with that unity. It appeared to him that the resolutions were al the present time inopportune. They had had the statement of the Colonial Treasurer placed in their hands, with the view of considering it, and ho thought the Houso should not bo called upon to consider these propositions before considering that statement in the manner in which it should be considered. Ho had heard that there might be some modification of these resolutions, which would tend to preserve the colony from a general scramble. However, as he understood the Colonial Treasurer's statement, it also did away with all hope in the minds of those who looked upon the scheme as a general scramble, in which they might gain largely at the expense and ruin of the colony. That statement withdrew all fear of that gambling tendency which was so much apprehended by those who were of his opinion in the last Parliament. It adopted a special system of securing that works should only be undertaken where there were special securities to offer, or where the population wa9 prepared to guarantee payment for the works on the principle of rating. Ho hoped the hon member, if he wisl.ed that further consideration should bo given to these resolutions, would postpone the consideration of them until they had had time to consider tho proposals of tho Government. Mr REEVES would vote against the resolutions for somewhat different reasons. He largely shared in the views expressed by ono or two lion members, and he hoped that he did not wrong the hon gentleman who brought forward the resolutions by a suspicion that ho could not really be sincere in bringing them before the House, because' he had always looked upon that hon gentleman as the typical man of the practical members in the House in years past. Ho could hardly understand that the hon gentleman, who was a supporter of the Gorernment last year, could come at such a juncture as this and bring in what he stated at the outset to be tho greatest organic change in tho history of the colony. He could conceive no more inopportune time to bring in such a change as this, and on that ground alone he would vote against going into committee o n tho resolutions. As one who some years ago took an active part in his own province in support of a movement for [separation ho was bound to state why, for other reasons, ho could not vote for these resolutions. Since the year 1867, when the House passed certain very important financial resolutions, and especially since those measures had been supplemented by the policy which was based on the action of the House last year, it would not only be impossible but highly impolitic, Tho reason why it would be impolitic was because the colony had, for the first time, entered upon a period of colonisation which would ensure their prosperity. He never shared in the frightful delusions expressed by the hon member Mr Rolleston ; ho could never see any extraordinary delusions in the policy of tho Government. He believed in that policy from tho first, and he believed in it now. Ho bolieved it would be of the greatest good to the colony, provided the Bchemeß were properly carried out ; and experience proved that tho Government had taken the most proper measures in carrying out the work of the colony. For these reasons he should be obliged to vote against the House going into committee on the resolutions.

Mr BATHGATE supported the resolutions in a very ableepeech. Mr FITZdERBERT looked upon tho attempt to pass the resolutions as an attempt to perpetrate an order of thingß which was about to pass away by common consent. Mr RICHARDSON spoke in opposition, and proposed the adjournment of the debate for a fortnight. Mr Reid, Mr Haughton, and Mr Calder spoke in favor of the adjournment, which was agreed to. THE EDUCATION BILL Mr FOX made his reply on this bill, but our spaco will not permit its appearance in our present issue. Tho bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday week. THIRD READINGS. Tho Evidence Further Amendment Bill, the Wellington Education Reserves Bill, and the Bakers and Millers Bill, were read a third time and passed. DISEASED CATTLE ACT AMENDMENT BILI/. Tho House went into committee on this bill, and after a lengthened debate, and many amendments, the bill was reported to the House. GEAND JURIES. The debate on this question was resumed and closed. A division being called for, the result waa as follows — Ayes, 24: noes, 34. The motion for the abolition of grand juries was therefore negatived. Notices of motion having been given, the House adjourned at twenty five minutes past twelve.