HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVI, Issue 3297, 8 September 1871, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Thursday, Septembeb 7. The Hon. tho Speaker took tho chair at half-past two o'clock. PETITIONS. Mr BRYCE presented a petition from a volunteer who had been accidentally shot on parade, and prayed for relief; also, two petitions from persons whoso property had been destroyed by order of an officer to prevent it falling into tho hands of the natives ; also, a petition from settlers in the Waitotara district, praying for compensation for property destroyed by the natives in that district. Mr STEWART presented a pe.t'tion from 57Roman Catholic inhabitants of Oainaru with reference to education. Mr MURRAY presented a petition from 51 Soman Catholics of Tokoinairiro of the same purport. Mr BRANDON preocnted a petition from H. Breughton, of the militia. The petitions were ordered to lie on the table. PETITIONS COMMITTEE. Mr T. KKLLY brought up tho report of the Petitions Committee on the petition of the Eev Mr Grace, of Auckland, praying for compensation for property destroyed by the natives ; the committee reported that Mr Grace was entitled to some compensation, and recommended his claim to the consideration of the House. Also, the report of the committee on the petitions of 449 Roman Catholic inhabitants of Hokitika, and of 58 inhabitants of Port Chalmers, in favor of a denominational system of education ; the committee recommended that as the subject was under tho consideration of tho legislature, they could not offer any opinion on the matter. Also, the report oi the committee on the petition of 2050 inhabitants of Otago, in favor of a secular Bystem of education, and praying that the present educational system of Otago may be preserved intact, and on the .petition of the Bishop of Wellington and eight other ministers of religion in Wellington, in favor of the Education Bill now before the House, and praying that no alteration may be allowed so as to affect its provisions for religious instruction, to which the answer was the same as the foregoing. Also, the report of the committee on the petitions of 302 female inhabitants and of 617 other inhabitants of Christcl.urch and its neighborhood, 39 residents in Drury and its neighborhood, 86 residents of Papakura and its neighborhood, and 380 inhabitants of Wairarapa, in favor of a Permissive Bill ; the committee did not consider it within their province to make any report, but recommended the passing of a measure for the better regulation of the eale of spirituous liquors. Papehs. Mr GISBORNE laid on the table a number of papers and returns. LAND TBANSFJEB ACT. • M REEVKS asked the Premier whether Government intended to bring in an act fchie session to amend the Land Transfer Act, 1870 ; and whether they intei.ded to take immediato steps to correct and complete the surveys of tho colony, in accordance with the recommendations of tho Registrar- General of Lund and Deeds, as contained in his recent report ; Mr FOX said the Government were about to introduce an act to amend the act of last session, the object of which would bo to facilitate , the working of that act, and make it more useful than it was at present. He was glad of the opportunity of making these remarks, because it hud been circulated outside that the Government were dissatisfied with the act, which was entirely a mistake, as, on the contrary.^they wero very much satisfied with it, and wished to extend its operations. With regard to the second portion of the motion, that matter had only recently been brought under their notice. It was one which raised a very serious question, and the only thing waß to have an entire resurvoy of the wholo colony. The Government wero not propared to say that it hud formed uny plans as to how that was to be done ; a great difficulty being ns to where the money was to come from. The Government would give its immediate attention to the consideration of the subject, and ho hoped before the session was over they would be able to propose something to the House. SniET? COUNCILS. Mr T. L. SHEPHERD asked the Government whether, with a view to establish local self-government within the colony, they intend to bring in a bill during tho present session to provide for the establishment of shire councils. Mr FOX hopod the hon member would not consider him discourteous because his answer was short. Tho Government did not intend to bring in such a measure. . TUT. DTWSTAN DISTRICT. Mr T. L. SHEPHERD aßkcd the Minister for Public Works whether the Gavernment would tuke steps to provide for the better administration of Justice in tho province of Otago, by causing the erection of a court house and gaol, and a periodical sitting of the Supreme Court, in the Dunstan district. Mr GISBORNE said a Supreme Court sitting could not be hold at that place until some .provision was made for a court house and gaol, and it was not tho intention of the Government to put on the Estimates this session any sum for that purpose. WOOL AND OIL. Mr JOHNSTON asked the Premier whether the Government intend to introduce this session an act to amend Tho Wool and Oil Securities Act, 1858 ? Mr FOX said he quite agreed that the prosent act quite defeated its own ends. The Government would take care that the matter wub provided for this session. PETITION OP ANN MOEEIS. Mr CANTRELL asked the member at the head of the Government whether or not it is

intended to give effvet to the recommendation of tho commissioner appointed to inquire and report into tho case of Ann Morris. Mr FOX said he quito believed that a wrong hud been done to Ann Morris by tho operation of tha machinery of inquiry, but tho Government had no clue at all as to what they should do, and he would suggest to the hon member that tho caso should bo referred to the ordinary petitions committee to inquire what amount of damage should bo awardedi Tho Government adinittod the justice of tho claim, but were only in doubt as to the amount to bo awarded. The lion member should give a notice of motion on the subject, to which the Government would offer no objection. LAW OF INSOLVENCY. Mr BATIItiATE moved 'that a select committee be appointed to consider and report on tho law of insolvency ; with power to call for persons and papers, and to confer with any committee appointed by the Legislative Council ; three to bo v quorum : committee to consist of Air E. llichnrdson, JVIr Brandon, Mr Peacock, Mr Curtis, Mr Gillies, Mr Haughton, Mr Webster, Mr Swanson, and the mover. He hud to remind the House that a bill having this object was introduced last session, but owing to press of business at the end of the se.-sion it was allowed to lapse. Tho existing bill contained bo many clauses as to render the rending of the law on the mutter very complicated. It was with the intention of facilitating tho operation of the law that he had brought forward the motion. Tho motion was then put und agrocd to. GKAND JURIES.

Mr STEWART moved that, in the opinion of this House, it is dosirnblo that the system of grand juries should be abolished within this colony. In moving this motion the hon member said that if ho thought for one moment that the modification he proposed to the House in that time honored institution which was the glory of England, would in any way impair its effieie'iry, or weaken its safeguards, he would be the last, t > make such a prjpusi tion to the House, but he was firmly of opinion that the abolition of grand juries would merely lend to a simplification of the proceedings in their criminal courts, in addition to which it would save much public time ant! public money. If theso two tacts were con ceded — thut the abolition of the grand jury would be a simplification of the proceedings of their courts, and a saving of money to the country, it would bo the duty of those who opposed the abolition to show that the grand jury system served some good purpose. It appeared to him that the pjwer of initiating proceedings could as well be exercised by tho police and by a crown prosecutor; therefore he eon sid'ered the functions of the grand jury purely tmperogafory. The Very existence ,"of such a body was an encouragement to laxity on the part of the justices of the peace, because they knew that in committing a person for triul another body would have to travel over the same ground as themselves. There had been cases in which the grand jury had returned no true bill, while the general opinion held by the public was that there was not only a prima facie case against the prisoner, but that there was a very strong presumptive case. How much more satisfactory it would bo, if such a person were an innocent man, to have his case tried at the assizes. He would allude to a fact within the knowledge of some of the members of the House that would cut away I the ground to a large extent of those who might oppose the motion as being a departure from the action of the Imperial legislature. The caso referred to was one in which the grand jury in one of the English shiree recommended the abolition of the grand jury system as effete and unnecessary ; so that it was very likely tho Imperial Parliament would now take a step in the direction he now proposed. Mr. BATHGATE seconded the motion, and complimented the young members of the House on the earnestness with which they advocated such important matters. He could only add hie testimony to the fact that their mode of criminal procedure was very cumbrous, and gave no very satisfactory result. He always noticed that the grand juries were composed of men of business who could not afford the time, and necessarily performed thoir duties in a very perfunctory manner. He confessed hia surprise, after tho'method and precision to which he was accustomed in the old country, at witnessing the careless way in which cases were investigated before grand juries in thia colony. Ho remembered a case, in which he was a grand juryman, where a man was charged with stealing a watch. A true bill was found and the case was sont ' down to the court without there being a tittle of evidence to send the man for trial. Then there was the objection that by their grand I jury system the evidence to be produced in the case was made known to the judge previous to j the triul. He held that neither the judge or J jury should know anything of tho evidence but through the ordimuy and proper channels — tho mind of thn judge should be. a tabula vasa. The hon member summarised a number of facts, proving tho inefficiency of the present system. They found a state of things in England by which innocent men huve been repeated ucciißcd falsely by bad characters who prayed upon pocicly, by endeavoring to obtain a livelihood in such a way. By the abolition of tho grand jury system, and the appointment of a properly 'named public prosecutor, they would obviate all objectionable practice?. In Scotland such an example as t lmt of Broudhead's could not have occurred — a case in which the Government had actually to condone his guilt, and purchase his evidence for the purpose of enabling them to put down tho offences of others. ,

Mr LIGHTBAND supported the motion, and thought one of the best und most weighty reasons in favor of the abolition of tho grand jury system was that it would be the means of infusing into common juries the intelligent qunlifictionß possessed by those who wero under the pnesent system drawn as grand jurors. Mr WAKEF IELD strongly supported tho motion for tho same reason. Mr Curtis, Mr GrsuortNE, Mr FiTznEMERT and Sir D. Monho spoke warmly against tho motion ; Mr Mukhay spoke in favor of it, as also did Mr Fox, whose speech was a very eloquent one.

Mr COLLINS was sorry the Premier had argued for tho doing away with one of tho most time-hallowed institutions of their oouutry. Tho hon member had placed constructions on tho remarks of the hon member for Mofuekn which they wore not intended to bear. Ho (Mr Collins) thought tho institution of grand' juries one of their greatest 6ufogunrda. The appointment of a public proseoutor could not be eaid to be un impartial office, and ho held that no such charge could be made against the grand juries.

Mr BUNNY thought it would not bo right to destroy the system of grand jurios in the colony.- In matters affecting themselves they wore too apt to follow the usages of other countries. Until they got a qualified person to fill the office of public prosecutor, ho would not conecnt to the doing away with the only means they at present hud for preventing the appearance of an innocent man in tho criminal dock. He thought it quite possible to appoint a public prosecutor who would bo in a position quite independent of any Government, but until that time they would be doing an unwise thing to sweep away the grand jury system. Mr O ALDER thought tho grand jury of very little use. He did not (hink it right that these very respectablo and intelligent gontlomen should be kept from silting on tho other — the most important jury — the common jury, When they touched any of those institutions which were hoary with time, it always gave rite to a traditional outcry, but whon they wished to do away with theso utterly useless bodies, facts should bo of the greatest weight, and facts were altogether against tho continuance oi the system. His greatest objection to the grand jury system was the amount of good it had prevented being dono. It was to the existence of tho grand jury system he attributed the fact that to this day the real set-

t'o nont of tho questions connected with tho prosecutions of Governor Eyro for his action in the Jamuica insurrection had not been effected Mr WHITE objector! strongly to the abolition of such a time honored institution, and would voto n>;iiiii«l f lie motion. It being now half-past Ovo, the further disoussion of the matter was then adjourned, tho Education Bill being on the paper for halfpast seven. MESSAGE PJIOTt THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. The SPEAKER announced that ho had received a message from tho Legislative Council transmitting tho Intostato Estates Act, 1871, and tho Millers and Bakers Act, 1871, ai d the Natumlisation Act, 1871, which the Council had read a first time. The Millers and Bakers Bill was then real a first time, and the second reading ordered for Tuosdiy next. Tho Intestate Estates Act was also read a first time, and the second reading ordered for Wednesday noxt. j STATEMENT* Mr YOGEL announced tha"; it was impossible) that the financial statement could bo merle on the next Bitting day. Ho should bo prepared to make the statement on Tuesday next. TUB EDUCATION BIT/&. The debate on the second reading of the bill was resumed. Mr CKEIGHTON said Mr Hall had charged somo members with having urged the secular system. He was not aware up to that time thut any argument in favor of secular education had been advanced. Tho hon mom her for Timaru had argued in favor of n denomiiKttijnal system, and ho would read a few extracts to prove the evils of that system. [The hon member then read from a work by De Arnold, and from an educational report, proving tho mischievous evils of denouiiuationulism.] Ho held that denominutionalism would produce no less injurious results in this colony than ho had proved it had done at home. He thought the House should pause before giving its a«9ent to a syetom that hud given riso to such manifold abuses in England and in the province of Au-kliiud. The Roman Catholic schools of Auckland had been under- the supervision of the Catholic t clergy for ten yours, and it came to his, that the Catholic laity rose as one man and rebelled against tho conduct of their schools by their spiritual superiors. He was dissatisfied with a portion of tho Premier's introductory speech, and with a portion of tho bill, because ho saw that tho wholo fruit of tluur victory over sectarianism in tho produce of Auckland was about to bo swept ivw-iy by thia bill. They* talked of religious instruction, but he thought to uso tho Bible us a common class book was an improper uso to which to put it — that tho child was to read and deduce his own meaning. Ho thought it nob right ut all that they should attempt to tench the* biblo in the schools ; they all knew that it was full of historical inaccuracy and Q • fallacy. Besides it was this too common use of tho Bible in the American scliools that had given riso to tho many religious sects which existed in America. He would expunge the conscience clauses, unconscionable clauses they should bo called, for there was no conscience in them. He approved of the Canadian system, which provided for the imparting of religious instruction after school hours, and tho Bible being expounded by clergymen. Mr WHITE was- very strongly in favor of the aided schools, although ho found it rather distasteful to many hon members. Ho was not in favor of denominationali'sin, although lie was in fuvor of the compromise offered by i tho bill. Many of those members who passed ! such high eulogies on the greatness of Prussia, attributed that greatnoss to the educational systom of that country, and whilo objecting to* denominational teaching, overlooked tho facf that their system was a denominational one. Ho was opposed to the principle of nominating the boards ; he would have them formed on a popular basis— an electoral basis. Those who considered the bill a cumbrous one should peruse tho Municipal Corporations Act of 1807. In opposition to that view he considered tho bill neither costly nor complicated. Ho quito agreed with tho congratulations passed on tho measure throughout tho Houso. It was the most important measure ever passed in the colony, and the name of tho present Ministry would be handed down on tho ymgea of history. Mr W. JOHNSTON entirely concurred with the opinions of the lion member for Timarn as to tho aided clauses. Ho believed no system of purely secular education would meet the vi.'ws of tho people of the colony ; it would never receive the support 1 " or : acquiescence of the Catholic portion. Tho hon member did not exaggrrate tho results of tho Becular system when he said it would produco intolerable tyranny. Somo members had objected to the denominational system, and ascribed to it all the evils of the habitable globe. It was not tho business of tho sfato to support any particular creed. Ho was, sure the universal feeling was that the bill would pay I even as a financial speculation. Ho folt con : vinced that the. effects of the education conferred by the bill would be found to give the advantages of educated labor and increased moral strength in the people. Mr THOMSON spoko in favor of tho employment of the Provincial system for the purposes of carrying out the machinery of the bill. He agreed with the Premier that tho I religious difficulty was external— it did not exist in tho school. Ho thought if there was any country in which denominationalism | would fail it was Now Zealand, because the difficulties wore greater in thinly-populated districts. He did not think the compulsory system would be at all successful. The hon member went through the merits of the Otago I system. He believed that system would suffer by tho passing of this bill, but he would nevorfheless support it, because he believed it would benefit the colony, particularly in those portions whioh were at present much neglected. Mr FITZHERBERT intended to support, the bill, but the hon member at tho head of tho Government must ccc that undor the general expression of accord there was lurking a spirit of opposition. Ifn could not puss on to tho merits of the bill without expressing his high admiration of a gentleman whom he was ! sorry not to see in tho House — Mr J. C. Eiehmond, and of anoMier lafo member — Mr Ball. Tho present was an instanoe that in saying a word that boro tho germ of truth, however it might bo regarded at the time, it will bud in ! the spring time and bring forth fruit, and we owed to-day the introduction of this measure fo tho efforts of thn late member for Mougormi. They had been thirty years colonising, and they had utterly failed in their attempts to educate the people. Ho would now like to see a class of education open to the very poorest, that they might raise themselves to the very highest. Ho thought it was unfortunate to have school committees and provincial boards. With these two bodies in existence, what was the minister to do with the staff of inspectors under him. He would warn tho Premier that in those school committees he was rearing up an obstacle to tho systom he was teaching. He thought it would bo much bolter Unit hi' should confine himself to those boards of education, which were amply sufficient for all local w.mts. Ho saw no virtue in tho provincial boundaries, and no reason why they should make these school boards coincident with their boundaries. He thought members of Provincial Councils were not tho persons to elect to the boards, which he thought should bo elected in a direct manner by tho people. Ho also thought females should bo elected to those boards. No nation could ever be groat unless its women were educated ; if women had been educated as well as men in days past, the world would have been greater than it is at tho present day. Another important point was that they should make provision tor adult education. Ho did not wish the Bible to be read in schools, because he believed that ins'ead of effecting the object that was propised by the reading of it, tho very reverse effect would bo attained, for they should be Very guarded aot to teach

the Bible by stealth. Ho thought tho compulsory system would have an exceedingly beneficial effect throughout the whole country, if they could carry ifc out ; but it would have an equally pernicious effect if they put it ou the statute book and did not oarry it out. Mr O'NEILL thought the appointment of tho boards should not bo in the hands of tho Provincial Councils ; they should bo elected, and ho thought the olections should bo done by means of voting papers. As to adult oducation, ho thought they should also confer knowledge of agriculture, mining, &c. Ho thought they should tako a leaf out of the American system of teaching. There they established schools along tho railway lines, and carried tho children to school freo of 'charge. Even were tho machinery of tho bill large, ns had been asserted, it must bo remembered that although they were only as large in population as a third-rato town, they were a larger country th'-m Great Britain, and so long as they had so large a country tho machinery would have | fco be expensive; but as tho population increased, and works went on, and people wore directed hero by emigration and otherwise, the expenses would grow less. Without they had large and extensive machinery they could not have so comprehensive a measure. Tho compulsory clauses would be found to bo very difficult to carry out, and it seemed to him that they had struck at the liberty of the subject ; parents had no voice in tho mutter. Tho aided school clauses ho was strongly in favor of, and ho hoped tho Government would eucccod in carrying them. As to the Bible teaching ib was not to bo expected that tho children could interpret it any more than a savage could. Ho would give 1 thorn an instance how it was interpreted by a Maori — and the Maoris wore keen and cunning rensoners. Ho was asked how many -wives he had, and he answered, much to his regret, ho had only four. Tho minister told him it was ngainet Biblo teaching that ho should have more than one. "Why," said he, "did'nt you give mo a Bible." " Yes," answered tho minister. " Well," said the maori, I find in that book that Solomon was a wise man, and I also find tint Solomon had three hundred wives. Kaupai Solomon." That was an instance how the Bible was interpreted. He would also refer to tho statement of Mr StafforJ, with reference to the expression of religious opinion in secular works. That instance redounded much to Mr Slaffbrd'B credit. The hon member then read extensively in condemnation of secular education. Ho had expressed himself as a Roman Cufcho lie, and ho believed that he was expressing the opinions of tho Roman Catholics as a body. He wo:ild give the biil all tho assistance he could in committee. At this stage Mr T. Kelly moved tho adjournment of tho debate till tho ovoning sitting of next day, which was agreed to. NELSON LEASING- BILL. This bill having beon committed, it w;is reported to the Home with amendments, which were ordered to be considered next day. DIS BASED CATTLE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. This bill was committed, and the Chairman having reported tho amendments, obtained leave to sit ugain on Tuesday. AUCKLAND BURIAL GROUNDS BILL. This bill was committed and reported to tho House with amendments, and the bill was I read a third time and passed. AKM3 BILL. This bill was committed, and met with a considerable amount of opposition from Mr Gillies, who complained that it was unjust that persons who desired fco keep valuable arms in their possession should be subject to such rigid conditions as were imposed by the bill. Ho considered it was usoless to honest people, and would not effect the good it professed to do. Mr Fox and the Speaker spoke strongly in favor of the bill, and shortly reviewed the native policy pursued by the Government. The chairman then reported tho bill, and obtained leavo to sit again noxt sitting day. Notice of motion having been given, the House adjourned at one o'clock until half-pust two o'clock next duy.