PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVI, Issue 3227, 16 June 1871, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

THURSDAY, JUNE 16; The Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m. PETITIONS. Several petitions were read, and ordered to bo printed. NOTICES OF MOTION. Several notices of motion vroro mode. LAND CEBTIFICATE. Mr HUTCHISON asked the Provincial Secretary — Why the usual remission certificate for hnd has beon stayed in the case of Dr Curl, of Rangitikei, after having been issued. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER produced a memorandum stating the reasons why the certificate had been stayed. It appeared that the scrip had been issued in error, as Dr Curl bad held no commission sinco 1866. LICENSING- AMENDMENT ACT. fifr WATT moved— For loave to bring in a bill to amend the Ist clause of the Licensing Amendment Act of 803sion 13, No. 10. It was very desirable that if any hon. members knew of any other amendments necessary it would be advisable to bring thorn forward as soon as possible, as the measure was a most useful ono. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY fully recognised tho necessity for the amendment proposed by the hon. member. Leave given, the bill read a first time, ordered to be printed, and tho second reading made an order of tho day for Tuesday next. HIGHWAYS ACT. In, moving the second reading, The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY pointed out shortly the object and scope of the bill. He agreed with Mr Ludlam that it was tho keystone of the policy of the Government ; and he was also free to admit that it waa a measure going altogether in a different direction to any legislation they had previously experienced. It would accomplish something that was never contemplated in the previous legislation, legislation he might call " permissive." It was something new to have a law compelling people to tax thomsolves, in order to mako roads. The policy of the Governmont was to provide a machinery by which every bit of property in the province might be made to contribute somothing — so that none might escape — to aid in the development of the province as a whole. It waa rightly described as a policy of taxation for the goneral advancement of tho province. They did not mean to tax any particular class, but every class, not alone the poor but the rich, and in as fair a proportion as they could arrive at, so that the wealthy man who had many acres should contribute in proportion to his wealth. They proposed to divide the province into eight largo districts (maps laid upon tho table), each of which would be divided into wards something in the same way as the corporation divided the city, each of which would return so many wardens, by whom a board of wardens would bo constituted, whose duty it would be to make roads or close them, or carry on other public works necessary. The main point of difference botween the Government and some hon. members would no doubfe bo the exact method of raising tho money to carry out these roads — a general work for improving every property in the province. This would •of course bo the 37th clause, which provided for levying un annual rate of one penny in the pound on tho value of all rateable property in the district. They therefore considered, after tho moat careful deliberation, that the best and only way to do this was to tax tho whole real estate of the province, and that the bill was in the right direction, and ontirely in the same spirit as tho colonising policy accepted by the whole colony. Tho hon. speaker then proceeded to go into tho details of the provisions of the bill, reading and commenting upon all the principal clauses seriatim. Having gone through tho bill as fully as tho Council could desire, he thought that though they could nol expect a unanimous expression of opinion, tho majority would feel bound to admit this bill waa iv tho right direction, and tho only course open to them by which they could extend the beuofit of tho colonising schemes now in progress to the furthest outskirts of the province. Every shilling raised under this act would go towards making the property of those who contributed to this scheme still more valuable — not one shilling of it would go towards paying salaries. It was conceived on tho same principle, and in the same spirit, as the Colonial policy — it was the spirit of helping themselves — the putting of thoir hands into their own pockets, not of going as beggars to another place for assistance. Mr LUDLAM should have been glad to have hoard the opinions of hon. members who were living in those districts likely to be most affected by this bill, as he came from a district which might well be called a settled district. Boforo going into the question, however, he would thank the Executive for thoadmirable clearness with which the bill was drawn up. Members must admit that in this respect the Council had at all events gained something by a change of Government. Still, that was no reason why they should be prepared to abandon their own opinions, and what they doomed to be the interest of their constituents, because any particular body of men occupied tho Government benches. But, iv making these remarks, the Government must not think that he— or indeed he might say overy other member of the Council — felt any hostility to the Government. On the contrary, they were all anxious to afford the Government all tho assistance in their power. At tho same time they must give such an important measure their most serious consideration. He might ask them what was the most vital principle of solf-governmont, or was there any clear idea of it ? No later than last session they were told by their late Superintendent that under the system which was then extolled so many hundreds of miles of road had been made ; while now they were asked to condemn that system in favor of another which called for a tuuch increased taxation. Tho hon. member then went into the explanation of tho causes which led to the failure of tho system in present oxistence. He would like to know what was the real actuating motive at tho bottom of these new propositions. Was it not done with tho object of enabling them to go to tho General Government and say that they had a groat power of raising a revenue, and, therefore, were ina'positiou to borrow in an increased degree from them under their public works policy. The hon. member pointed out tho injurious action taken by the Legislative Council in the matter of acreage rates ; though they nevor took a wiser part than in sanctioning tho act providing for the distribution of £5000 amongst the different road boards of the province. He denied that the policy of the Government — a taxation policy he called it, for ho could not call it anything else— was a colonial policy. It was not so in Otago ; there tho acreage rate was still in favor. It was all very well to talk of future prosperity, but tho Government would do woll before imposing theso measures to weigh them carefully and see if they were not acting unfairly. Me would admit that the policy if ! carried out would have ono beneficial effect — i it would have tho effect of rousing up tho ' peoplo, and destroying that apathy which had so long kept them in stagnation. The bill proposed to tax tho people in two ways. They appointed a Central Board, which would have nothing to do with tho main roads, but would tax the peoplo for tho maintenance of the district roads, while tho Government, which took charge of the main roads, would dip into the people's pockets for tho support of these roads. The present system was much fairer in principle, and more economical to tho settlors. He could see a good opening for a smart chairman and one or two boards of wardens ruling the whole thing — in a word, a good opening for jobbery. Thoy would make hotoh-potoh of tho money. While tho central board would bo spending the money as a majority of them decided, tho poor unfortunate small boards would bo starved. They would find that this bill would not prove a palatable one to a groat many in tho province, He objected to this

kind of taxation in a new country— placing the power of taxing every single property in. tho districts in the hands of a few men who possessed the most imperfect information ns to its worth. This might do in tho old country where the value of evory bit of property was known to a penny, where even the very stones on tha turnpike were almost known; but in a country like this, he would ask hon members to recall their own experiences and say was it possible to get a bodj of men who wore able to assess the property. Let them ask fifty men as to the value of a particular property, and one would say £5, another £10, another £20, and so on. Besides, he waß surprised at the system emanating from the hon the Provincial Secretary, who if his ears did not deceive him, had, in the General Assembly, in his most vigorous terms, advocated an acreage rate. {The Provincial Secretary explained that, on the contrary, he had ever been in favor — had, in fact, been the firat to move in the matter — of an annual value rate in preference to an acreage rate.) MrLudlara said that by this bill they were punishing th» improvers of property for the benefit of the more idlo. Was it fair to como now and ask men who bad been toiling for twenty and thirty yearj to come now — after having already paid very heavily — and tax themselves to open up tho country ? In an evil hour, and from political pressure from country members, the Government had introduced that pernicious system of giving grants-in-aid to road boards — a measuro which had done more to destroy tho self-reliance of road boards, and tho resources of the province than anything else they had ever done. Before going to inflict this largo amount of taxation —for this policy waa * meant as a permanent one — they should examine, with the utmost acutoness in order to see if this taxation was fair ; because he would make tho bold statement, and would prove it if necessary, that tho people of New Zealand wore never so poor in every respect, and simply. for the want of roads. (Government Benches : Hear, hear.) Well, ifc wa3 abso* lutely staggering to him to see public men got up one day and deliver themselves of principles that they would, at the expiration of three months, condemn by proposing somothing directly opposite to everything they had advocated during the whole of their public existence. In any case, there was one thing respecting the retaining of office of Warden. By having a system of of Wardens, bo that they would not all go out at once, they would have the advantage of always retaining some men who were conversant with the details of the business. With regard to these district roads having any bearing or being connected in any way with the railway policy of the General Government, he did not see either had one iota to do with the other. The railway policy was a policy that was every day becoming more and more— he was glad to see it — recognised as something purely and entirely colonial. As for the hon. gentleman saying we would be carrying out a policy the same as the other provinces, he thought difforently. The other provinces were clearly of a different opinion, and were not carrying out the principle of the Government of levying a yaluatingrate upon praperty. After commenting upon some minor details, the hon. member said ho felt it to be his duty to vote against the second reading of the bill.

Mr BRANDON moved the adjournment of the debate till the following day. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY could not consent to such an adjournment, as there was a great deal of business to be gone through which could not be done until this measure was gone through. The motion lapsed for want of a seconder. Mr MORGAN" supported the bill brought down by the Government. He found that the majority of the road boards in the province were impotent for good ; nearly all of them were shut up from one cause or another. He approved entirely of the principle of rating according to annual value, as being an advantage than otherwise to the industrious settler. Practically, the tax bad no other objects than as a moans of assisting the energetic settler and improving the property of the province at large. The hon. member then quoted from an act in force in the Nelson province, which gave power to the board to assess (he lands of settlers. Still, under this system, he thought there should be some means of saving expenses by which people might be enabled to fix the assessment themselves. On tho whole, however, he was in favor of the bill. The measure formed an excellent groundwork on which to ereot a perfect system of local self-Government, an end which was inevitable, and must come soon or later.

Mv THYNNE opposed the bill, not from any hostility to the Government, but from a deep, seated conviction that it was wrong in principle. He was confirmed in this view from the experience ho had gained in the Manawatu district. From the way in which a great deal of property was held and was worked — some improved and more unimproved — • it would bo a means of taxing the poor man, who had his living to make, to the advantage of tho rich man. In another respect, they would assess a man's building in proportion to the cost it had entailed to build it. A man in Foxton, who would value his houso there more than a man with one by the road in Palmerston, would reap an advantage greater than the latter. Ho was certainly indebted to tho Government for taking the steps they had done to enable this bill to be ventilated before it came on for discussion in the Council. He was sorry, however, he could not give the support to the Government he would wish j but he could not support a measure that would be the means oi shutting up large and valuable blocks of land in the district he came from. Besides, it would fall unjustly and unequally on his district, inasmuch as they had many miles of road in various parts threefourths made ; and according to this bill they would practically have to pay over again for making and completing these roads, when they could do it under the present system at a small acreage rate. He was quite certain that a great deal of land in the Manawatu now not taken up would be in five years time, with this prospeot of taxation before them, of equal and in some cases of more value than property which had been undergoing constant improvemont for many years. He could not help seeing that the provisions of the act must fail unequally and unjustly upon very mauy of the settlers. For these reasons he felt bound to oppose tho bill, though he would admit that in some degree tho exigencies of the country required a measure (but more qualified) of this kind to enable fehe province to progress.

Mr ANDERSON supported the bill, as be could not help knowing that most of the road boards in tho province were utterly impotent for any good — nay, they were often positively injurious. He had seen that many of those little boards would not unite for harmonious action with neighboring roud boards ; in fact, there was very often a narrow and illiberal spirit displayed, and members of these boards seemed to aim at improving their own private property rather than the benefit of the district —in short, they generally wanted a road to their own door. These boards, therefore, ought to be swept away, with all their narrowmindednesa, potty jealousies, and squabbles, and abolished altogether, as they were utterly and irretrievably bad. The hon. member then described a piece of road iv the vicinity of Wangarei, under the control of one of these boards, which was be« yond the power of man or beast to travel. The very comprehensive and spirited nature of this bill was calculated to bring forward a class of men to manage Buperior to fchos© small-minded and prejudiced men who toqkntf charge of roads under the present system?^ and when they succeeded in getting these men of higher intelligence to take charge of these things, they would find that the work would be done better, and with a greater view to the benefit of the districts at Targe, regardless of tho plot of this man or that man. Besides, there were largo slices of land in the Rangitikei and Maiuwatu districts which were not assessed at all. This alone was a forcible objection to the acreage system. He had another reason to urge to show how the acreage system was unfair, There was an euor»

mous quantity of land in the Wainui omata practically valueless— bought, in fact, for 5s per acre, and a bad investment at that — there was laud in the Hutt valued at £50 per acre, [JlrLudlam: Will you give £40 for it, for you can have it?] and yet, notwithstanding the startling nature of the anomaly, both wero rated alike. It might be urged that there waa a right of appeal ; but in nine cases out ten the appeal was always defeated. Now he contended that the very fact that the necessity for appeal was recognised was indubitable proof that the system was radically wrong— wrong in principle and in practice. It wa3 not right to say that it was a hardship on the poor man who worked hard to improve his land. If a man had an income of £100, and paid a tax upon it, that was o reason why the man with an income of JSwO should not pay in proportion to his income. On broader grounds, he thought the time had come when the province, for very ealf-pi'eservatiou, should push its roads to its uttermost verges and extend its power in every way. Not to do this would bo fatal to Wellington ; because Auckland was pushing her way, increasing her power, by annexation and otherwise in this direction. If Wellington did not coutermine, as it were, in self-defence, she would be overridden by the superior province. Tho time was rapidly coming when the provincial system would expire from shoer inantion ; and no better opportunity could be given for preparing the people for local self-govern-ment than wa9 afforded by this bill. He would vote for the second reading.

Mr BRANDON opposed the second reading of the bill, -which he looked upon as antagonistic to provincialism. The districts ■were altogether too large for the natural features of the country, and for that reason would be found unworkable. Let them take Castle Point aB an instance. How could wardens from there attend the meetings of the board when they had to ride 40 or 60 miles ? If their piesence was required, as it would be very frequently, how could they attend unless they were paid for attendance. With regard to the rating, he thought it ought to be left entirely in the hands of the ratepayers. It should be for them to say whether they would be rated by assessment or otherwise. That at least should be conceded to them. He could point to districts— many of them— where the people had spent more than the actual value of the land itself in order to make it accessible ; and now to make these people pay for roads to be made to Waikanae or elsewhere was monstrous— it would place people who would now take up land without having a shilling spent on it, in a better position than those who spent years of toil and heaps of money on the roads through their property. Then again, iv the election of wardens, was it fair that a person who owned the tithe of property of another, should have just as much power in returning wardens to assess the property of the district. Had the bill provided for the keeping of main roads, it would have been a different thing. He would much rathev see the local boards manage it themselves. Should any dissatisfaction ensue from their acts, they might then ha^o a head board who could be appealed to. Look at the inconvenience that would bo caused to settlers not contiguous to where the board sut, in coming in time after time to see what was being done ; how they were assessed ? besides I various other inconveniences — nil pointed to the utterly impracticable and unworkable nature of the proposed measure. Then there was no provision for Maori land. (Government Benches : How is it taxed now ?) It was not taxed ; nor could it be taxed at all under this bill. The result of this would be that the Government would reap the benefit in the end in the case of absentees. They could not claim it as a personal debt until they obtained judgment. (Voices : No, no ; read the act.) He had read it, and he would ask, was be wrong in saying what be bad ? A man, too, was not only taxed for the benefit of the district, but it was possible to double the rate for the purpose of— yes, nothing move ncr less than jobbing, without the people most interested having an opportunity of saying a word in the matter. The Government said they were only bound by the principle of the bill ; but members must remember that if they allowed the second reading, they accepted ail the principles of the bill, and nothing but the bill. They would find they would be far better off with the system of smaller boards ; and they would have far less jobbery — if jobbery there was at all in them — than by the proposed sysrem. The hon. member concluded his remarks by moving that the bill be road that day six months. Mr W. MILNE seconded. Mr BOELASE said ho had been anxious to hear the opinion of country member upon the question. Having done co, he felt free to speak in general terms upon the bill. It might bo novel here, but there was nothing new in it. The principle was in operation in other countries. The system thej' were seeking to set aside was a narrow-minded and pettyfogging system, whose vitality and power entirely depended upon Government assistance 5 and as soon as that fell off, the system became inoperative and practically defunct. After all it was only the Government money •which had been the means of making the roads which had been made. (No, no.) (Yes, yes.) The solo direction of this legislation was to provide something for the day when provincialism would be put on one side. As things were, they were not in a position to perform this duty by the province by making roads, budges, and opening up the country; and unless they did something of this kind fc'.iey might eit down and let things take their course. It might be well to do this for the sheepfarmerß who had made himself comfortable — to sit down, pipe in mouth, looking at his Bheep, and say " I don't care twopence." They were here to colonise the province, to do their duty as settlers, to open up the country so as induce people to come and settle it; and to do this they must tax— not to do 60, was to sit down savagelike and apathetic, and grin and bear it, not going ahead, but actually going back, closing up the country altogether. Under the small board system, a little local jealousy would sorve to neutralise the efforts of all. If Makamwas moropowerfulthanKarori, it could prevent the other from carrying out some necessary work to both, but perhaps a shade more advantageous to the other. Besides, these small boards were not able of themselves to carry out a work or road of any considerable importance. How would towns work and improve under such a system ? If one streot or ward received apparently no direct benefit from some large piece of work required, their arguments would not be received, and they would be taxed all the same. The principle was just, was long practiced as a principle of taxation — a principle recognised universally. For his own part, if he had to pay only £10 taxation, he should be only too happy had he tho good fortune to be taxed ten times as much, provided ho knew he was only being taxed in a fair proportion. He trusted that members would see that the Government, in bringing forward this measure, only aimed at lifting the province out of the rut in which she bad so long stuck ; and, in order to do tbl9, they must all put their shoulders to the wheel.

Mr MASTERS would not say much, but he would not give ft silent vote ; tho more bo, a3 he believed he ■would, in voting for the Government on this meaaure, be voting in opposition to a great many of the settlers in his district ; but he folt bound to vote for the bill, because it meant progress to the province and prosperity to all. He did not mean to say th;®^ "i road board in his district had not dou Its dutj' and a groat deal of good ; but he felt satisfied that tho bill would enable l'Otids to be made and country opened up now quite beyond the power of any of the present road boards. If he apprehended the real Bcope and intention of the bill, it was to make such roads through tho province as would open up portions of the country, which would otherwise remain locked up for an indefinite period.

Mr W. MILNE could not support the Government on this bill. Iv principle, he

admitted that assessment was the fairest rate in an older settled country ; but he contended we had not yet arrived at that period. At the time tho acreage rate was imposed, he knew that they must look forward to one day paying an assessed rate ; but at the time that acreage rate \v tl s imposed, it would have been as unjust and impolitic to impose an assessed rate as it was now. As for the remarks of hou. members, casting imputations on the gentlemen who managed these so-called petty road boards, he protested against such talk altogether. Iv a little board, to which he did not belong, but with whose working and personnel he was intimate, he knew they wore anything but half educated, narrow-minded men. One at least of the gentlemen on it had been repeatedly asked to stand fur the General Assembly, but he declined the honor. It was not right to import remarks of that kind into the discussion ; rather lot them address themselves to the merits or demerits of the bill itself. To tho many points of the bill to which he objected ho must except one — that was, it embraced tho whole province ; and he was free to admit that the time had arrived when it was clearly necessary, in order that they should go on, that they must make up their minds to 6uffor taxation of some kind. He had seen an argument in a public print of the town in favor of a valuation rate ; but the writer seemed to forget that when the land was sold, the purchaser understood that roads wero to be made by a uniform acreage rate, and this mode of assessing was therefore altogether new and unexpected. On the whole, although he could not support tho bill, he felt that the Government had taken a very proper course, and therefore deserved every consideration.

Mr PEARCE said the bill before the house was one of those measures in which it was a difficult matter to distinguish principles from details. It was such a hard matter of fact measure that it was impossible for a member to speak freely and clearty on the bill except in committee. Of the rating clauso he was not afraid, though ho failed to see where the excessive amount was to come from at the rate of a penny an acre. Hon. members could calculate it from the figures given in his Honor's speech. By this bill a sum of only about £18,000 was provided for ; yet if they referred to the revenue expended in 1867 they would find it had reached a sum of £40,000. On the principle of assessment on valuation, he entirely agreed with the bill. He sondemned utterly that most iniquitous principle of permisbive rating. It was only a short time ago since the Wairarapa organised road boards, and if they had hud some such provisions as were contained in this bill in operation, it would have been a great good to the district to-day. There were many points in the bill involved in some obscurity, or rather on which sufficient information had not been afforded, and on which he would like to know a little more ; but he would not oppose the second reading of the bill. As for the hardship and tyranny likely to be caused by Iho large districts, he considered that there was far more tyranny and injustice likely to arise from the small boards. lie felt sure fchat the rate of one penny, instead of being too much, would be, on the contrary, altogether inadequate.

The PROVINCIAL TREASURER was glad to hear the remarks and suggestions of the hou member who had just sat down ; and also had felt great pleasure in listening to the speech of the lion member for the Ilutt (Mr W. Milne). lie deprecated the idea of easting any slur on the gentleman who composed those small road boards they wished to supersede. All honor to them for the good the}' had done, and done under great difficulties. But he contended they had accomplished the objpots for which they were formed 5 and wore ro longer adequate to meet the demands required of them now. As for the board of Kangitikei, ho considered they had been eminently successful, and done more work continuously than most of the road boards ; but a great injustice was the result ; for the more those boards did, the more fell upon them to do. Now this bill would remove this injustice. It would relievo them of all this trouble and expense, and place the burden moro equally, and confer a great benefit — against their will — upon men who were opposed to taxation in every form. The effect of making roads in the Rangitikei district Lad been to raise the price of land from 10s to £2 and £3 per acre j and that would be the result throughout the province by this bill coming into operation Another thing. There was no doubt that the Government had brought in this measure looking forward to the day when Provincialism would be passed away — not from its weakness, but through a great union, and strength, und sympathy between the component parts of tho colony — when provincial barriers would fall down, and a community of iuterest and general fusion of institutions would supervene in the natural order of things. But until they mado those roads — and thoy could not bo made without funds — the country could not bo opened up, the farmer would be shut out from markets, and all intercommunication would be inefficient. Besides, looking forward to tho colonial policy, of railways now iv progress, of what use, comparatively speaking, would they bo to the out-districts of the province, if they did not provide these feeders ? Without these feeders they could have no claim to share in the benefits of theee railways ; with these feeders, their claims would be irresistible As to the principle of the bill, he might say that in nearly every respect the bill was based on the principle of ,the Municipal Corporations Act. Looking at tho way in which the boards would be composed, he would point out how it was tho more likely to enable the ratepayers to have a fairer modicum of justice meted ont to them than by the present system. By this bill, which drew its representatives from all parts of the district, the ratepayers were moro likely to get liberal and enlightened opinion, than with a board which, under the present system, might be composed of a few neighbors, taken from within a few miles of each other. Besides, it provided greater facilities for carrying on work. One chief point of resistance to the bill appeared to bo the assessment rate. But he would ask honorable members if the acreage rate had not been productive of the greatest injustice. (Cries of no, uo ? yes, yes.) The real opposition, seemed to be to absentees. Well, he didn't like absentees; in fact in a country like this, he hated absentees. But if they were so hostile to absentees, let them not make this a shelter by which to defeat the bill — by a side wind as it were. Rather let them face that objection fairly and impose a special rate on absentees. With regard to the objection to a tax upon improvements, what did it amount to ? What did a man improve for ? Was it not to make money ? (Mr Ludlam ; no, no ; for his comfort.) He said it was only another name. If ho wanted a fine house, garden, a good road on which to drive about in hia carriage to see his friends, it was only placing that within his possession which was equivalent to money, and it ought to be paid for. There had been a disposition to find fault with the Government for not having brought down an estimate of the valuation they expected ; but it must be recollected that the Government; had taken up tho affairs of a province in an embarrassed position, and it was utterly impossible for tho Government to have done that as it should have been done in tho time, and with tho other work they had to do, and, therefore, they had never attempted it. But taking the rough estimate of £18,000 a year as something to spend on their roads, which one hon. member considered too small, ho could Bay lie would only bo too happy to see that amount available to expend on tho roads of the province, and it would be found sufficient to send tho roads on at a very respectable pace ; and if the province had had that annual amount being spent on their roads for the last few years, he ventured to say that the population would, by this time, have been doubled. Mr Brandon wanted to know why thovo was not a plurality of votes in proportion to tho property owned. In answer to this, he could only cay that tho principle was

that working in the Corporations Act, and no ono hoard any complaints of tho injustice of that. As for tho other objections raised by the hon. mombor — the voting power of unmarried women, and the difficulty of living at a distance from the meeting place of tho board, they were as easily answerod. The only solid objection he could see himself, was in their treatment of the absentees; and there was no way of getting over it but by facing tko difficulty, and providing for it specially. As for the diflicully apprehended from the possibility of the Government wanting to make a particular road as a main road. If the Government were anxious and willing to make a road, depend upon it any road board would allow them to make ifc. Ho trusted hon. members would waive all minor objections, and give the Government a hearty Biipport in carrying the measure.

Mr WATT regretted that, notwithstanding the many arguments ho had heard in favor of the bill, that ho could noli Biipport the Government upon it. No such measure was wanted. Ho did not object to the Government doing work for tho settlers, but it was possible the G-overnmeut might do more than thoy were wanted to do. Who wanted the roads ? not those who had already made their roads ; and yet thoy wanted to tax those very people for tho benefit of those who had no roads. This was nothing but placing a tax upon industry, and could only have the effect of injuring a great many portions of the province improved by industrious and energetic settlers. He was certain that this bill, if passed, would bo protested against by tho sottiers of his district. Looking carefully at the bill, it seemed to him that ifc must conceal something more than was visible upon tbo surface, that made the Government attach so much importance to it; if this view was not correct, he was at a loss to see what the bill contained that might not be put on one side without injury to anyone. He thought tho proposition mado by Mr Brandon was a good one, and might bo advantageously embodied in the bill — that was, iv allowing the power of assessment to remain in the hands of the ratepayers. So far as ho could judge, the act would not only bo unsatisfactory in its working, but exceedingly expensive. Another provision wanting in the bill, and which no one had touched upon, was in a case where a road went through a native reserve. [Provincial Treasurer : The occupier will pay]. However, in opposing this measure, he should be sorry to see the Government turned out of their seats, as ho saw no one belter able to fill their places. He would vote ; agnin6t the bill. I

Mr HUTCHISON said before he was compelled to vote either against the second reading or only against the bill, he would like the Government to give some more information. The bill had a peculiar character — " It was too good for a blessing; too bad for a curse." But such as it was, the Government seemed to be united in their opinion of it. Instead of finding fault with the bill, as many hon. members did, because the proposed districts were too large, he thought, on the contrary, they were too small. The real difficulty was in the rating clauso — not because ho considered tho valuation principle unfair, but because it was so in the meantime. They were rating simply for roads at present,- not for the whole institutions of the country. The principle might be right — no doubt would in eight or ten years — but was not so now. It was unjust treatment to rate a man who had spent his money on a fine and handsome building, an act that was refined and liberal, and was practically educating tho rising generation out of the four-roomed packing style of building they were too familiar with. Why, this was tho very principle that led the people of tho East to assume an appearance of real poverty so that they might not bo robbed by tho Cadi or Ba9haw. One point about tho acreage system that was unaswerable was that certain holdings escaped taxation altogether. Ho admitted that should not be so, and should bo romedied. He fully recognised that large districts would bo rather an advantage than otherwise, as he knew by the work required to bo done in parts of tho Wanganui district. But on the other hand, to bring Buch accusations against the small road boards as had boon done by ono hon. member, was something wholly undeserved, for ho know they had not only done good service, but had endeavored to do a great deal more than it was in their power to accomplish. While from personal convictions, ho was in fa\ror of seeing the main lines of road in chargo of the Government, he maintained its work could not be done either as expeditiously or cheaply as by these Bmall boarda. Ho might give an instance of a bridgo which was opened for traffic in twenty-four hours, when if it had been under tho control of the Government it; would nob have been opened for weeks. Some members said tho bill was provincial, some anti-provincial. But he had no doubt at all on the character of tho bill. Why, it was as thoroughly provincial as the seven smells of Cologne were unsuggestive of fragrance, and if, as the Provincial Treasurer said, it was a measure to pave the way for tho departing of provincialism, he could only say it was marvellously hard to see how it was going to be done by any such measure ; in fact, it was tho most thoroughly provincial meusure ho had seen for years, and the province wa3 now revelling in more provincialism than it ever was. Still he should like to support tho bill, if ho could find any excuse for doing bo.

Mr PIIARAZYN then moved the adjournment of tho debate, which was agreed to, and the Council adjourned at 11.40 till 3 o'clock to-morrow.