PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVI, Issue 3149, 16 March 1871, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

\ WEDNESDAY, MARCH 15. The Speaker took the chair at 7 o'olook. The minutes of last meeting were read and confirmed. EXPLANATION. The SPEAKER called the attention of the Council to an irregularity which had taken place in the proceedings of last evening with regard to the Patent Slip Bill. It appeared that Mr Borlase had substituted a corrected motion, which had been negatived in a slightly different shape before the correction was made. PAPEBS. Several papers were laid upon the table— Correspondence with the Chief Surveyor relative to the arrears of surveys in the province 5 also, a return showing the division of the money in the various Road Boards of the £5000 allocated under the Payment to Provfc vinces Act, 1870 ; also correspondence relat&|£ to the land sale at Marfcon. LAND SEVENTHS. 11l reply to the question of Mr AndeeW, Mr HALCOMBE said the General Government had laid no embargo on the revenue accruing at the Land Office. QUESTION; Mr LTJDLAM asked, without notice, whether Mr Holdsworth had ascertained the feasibility of placing a punt on the Hutt river in order to enable the people to bring their produce into town. Mr HALCOMBE said he had only just returned from the Hutt with Mr Holdsworth, and arrangements had been made to get a punt to work immediately above the bridge. They had also made satisfactory arrangements with Mr Valentine ; and also that Mr Baird's report on the road waß far more satisfactory than had been anticipated. LAND ON DEFERRED 2ATMENTS. Mr DRANSFIELD moved— That in the opinion of this Council a block of land should be reserved for sale in the Manawatu district, on a system of deferred payments. The hon. member then pointed out in a few brief but eloquent remarks the advantages, which would accrue to the province from the introduction of such a measure. He felt he was acting in entire unison with not only the sentiments of a large majority of the members of the Council, but also of the community at large, with whom it wa3 a very strong desire that an opportunity should be afforded to those desirous of becoming settlers on some such system. It was well known there were many in the province of limited means who were desirous of taking up land on such conditions. The hon. speaker dwelt on the provisions of the Provincial Act of 1868. He was confident that the necessity for the bill would be so manifest to every well-wisher of the province that it was needless for him to expatiate at great length on the advantages of the bill. He had no doubt of the opinion of the Council on the matter. Mr BORLASE seconded the motion. He said that ever since he had been in the country it had always been his object to endeavor to obtain for the sons of the pioneers of the settlement the possibility of obtaining land on deferred payments. If those who chose to take the trouble would do so, they would find in the blue books how many anxious discußsions had taken place on this very topic They could not introduce the system at the present moment, but what they could do would be to place on record the opinion of the Council in the matter, by affirming that the system would be beneficial to the poor, by setting apart a portion of the Manawatu block ' for settlement on the principle of deferred payments. We were not so peculiar in our characteristics as a community that what bad been tried and had succeeded elsewhere would not be beneficial to us. Why should we not set aside Bcnall farm sites, and carry out the viewß of those who passed the scheme for small farm settlements? He did not intend to discuss the matter at any length, but he did say that some system should be introduced by which bona fide settlers would be enabled to go on to their lands with a little money in their pockets. Mr FAGAN said the hon. member was not correct in sajing that the small farm system had fallen through. A block of land had been set aside for the purpose of carrying out the small farm project, and they were only waiting the possession of the land for the setting out of the block into small farms. Mr MASTERS detailed how for the last twenty years he hud used bis best endeavors to forward the system of small farms, instancing the fact that he had himself laid off a town, and offered every possible advantage to set the system of small farms in operation, and the result was that he could only get two or three people to settle on the land, on account of the want of roads. With such encouraging support, he had determined to support no more small farm schemes. No encouragement had ever been given to the small farmer in this country. The township of Masterton had been formed for seventeen years, and to this hour there was no main road to the place. . Mr ANDREW endorsed the views of Mr Masters. Mr ANDERSON pointed out that during the last ten years there had been a strong desire on the part of the poor people to obtain land, but it had received no encouragement, on the part of the. Government at any rate. If some plan were initiated which would place a man on the land without exacting from him an exorbitant price for it, but instead were to place him on the land, imposing on him only the condition that he should make improvements, either in the shape of a house or other improvements, such a" system would confer a large and very general benefit. If this system of free occupation were initiated, imposing as conditions of occupation residence and improvement we should soon have the plains of the Manawatu dotted with comfortable homesteads. He begged to support the resolution. Mr HALCOMBE was very glad the motion had been brought forward, because in connection with the initiation of the system of public works it was very desirable that facilities should be offered for settlement. He did not think that too large blocks should be granted or that the. payments should be too long deferred. The matter was worthy the fullest consideration at the hands of the Council, because he was fully convinced that the colonisation of the country was only beginning. He had ridden over hundreds of miles of the mostbeautiful country it would be possible to find in any part of the world, and possessing suoh a magnificent climate as it did he did not believe that it had one -fifth of the population it was capable of oarrying. The people of the province absolutely knew nothing whatever of its resources, but to deprive the province of its land revenue was simply a delusion and a snare, and would be one of the worst things that could be done. He was glad that the motion had been brought forward, inasmuch as it would be the means of placing on record the opinions of members of the Council. Mr HUNTER only agreed with the motion so far as granting a per centage of free land. As the motion had only been brought forward ior the purpose of inviting discussion, he might say that he agreed with its spirit, but the details must be left to be settled hereafter. The great want ot the country was the want of population. Let us double our population, and by that means only was the prosperity of the province t» be brought about. Mr PHARAZYN agreed with Mr Hunter in approving the principle contained in the motion, but he also thought the dejtail was a matter that would require very careful consideration. The main objection to selling the land on deferred payments in large quantitkflk was the danger of repudiation. The mamß. tudo of the scheme proposed by Mr Borlasty? had always frightened people from the adoption of the principle, and it had always been the case that in returning representatives the people had always returned men opposed to the principle, on account of this danger of repudiation. Mr Renall and Mr MnHB spoke in favor of the motion.

Mr BUNNY said it mattered not about the Betting apart of blocks of land unless they had roads to get to that land. What the settlers wanted were roads to convey away their produce, and markets to dispose of them in when they got there Tho whole question resolved itself into one of ways and means. The matter, if deferred, might be adopted in connection with the public works of the General Government. Ho was not one of those who looked upon these works from a local point of view ; he considered every public work as a colonial work, and every system of introducing population should be encouraged, and for that reason he looked upon the system of deferred payments as a judicious method of populating the country. Tho interior of the country was not populated at all, for some of the lands of tho provinae had never seen the foot of a white man, and when population was placed upon these we should redeem ourselves from our present position, and bo placed in tho position we should opcupy, which was the position of the first province of the colony. Ho supposed the object of the motion was simply to ascertain the opinion oi the Council, and with that object ho would endorse its spirit, but would go -further, and propose that tho principle of deferred payments should be adopted, in all districts of tho province, and not bo confined to any particular district. Mr THYNNE seconded the amendment.

Mr LUDLAM said the Council hi 1865 had adopted the principle by setting aside a block for testing tho principle of deferred payments, but ho could not say that it had attained all that had been said for it by Mr Borlase. He was not prepared to say that the system of deferred payments was not of great advantage, but at tho same tiino he must say there wore many disadvantages connected with it. In looking to the question as regards the giving away of public lands, we had a right of looking at what would be the effect on our future condition. Ho regretted that the Bystem of email farms had not been carried out, for he believed that that system would have suited the people, and he maintained that if would still suit the people ; for a system managed as it was proposed that that Association should be managed, was capable of conferring greater benefits than any land system conducted by Government, for it was a condition that unless the payments were met, or the stipulations otherwise fulfilled, no title was granted. He believed that had the principle contained in the Land Regulations of 1865 been carried out, tho province would now be in a very much better position than it was in at present. He had no alternative but to Bupport the resolution, and give the principle another trial, although he did not think it advisable to bind the future Superintendent. He did not agree with the amendment of the hon. member for Wairarapa, and he Bhould therefore vote for the motion.

Mr MASTERS supported the amendment. He would like to see the principle extended to all districts alike. The back-bone of the province was the email farmer ; for if they had a Bettlement of small farmers at the Forty Mile Bush, and a railway running through that part of tho country, they would soon have the prosperity of the province return, and have plenty of work for their patent slip to do, for they would require a great many ships to take away their produce.

Mr BRANDON said some hon. members were wrong in their statements with reference to the working of small farms in the province. The failure of tho small farm scheme was because they had not had population to go on the land. It was not for the Government to set forth a scheme nor to see that regulations wore carried out ; it was for those parties who initiated such a scheme to carry out the -work. There was no statement in tho motion as to "who the lands were to be granted to j it did not stipulate that the land was to be occupied by bona fide settlers. He would not vote upon any such open motion as thats, unless some more definite scheme were set forth.

Mr PEARCE said that it was well known that all along he had not seen the advantage of such a scheme, but he must confess that on seeing the advantages likely to accrue from its adoption he had become a convert ; but it ■would be much better that such a scheme should emanate from the Government. They "were all aware that a similar system had been discussed in 1865, and he regretted that ifc had not had a fair trial at that time; He would not oppose the amendment, because he thought it should now have a fair trial. He thought it would be better for the Government to consider the matter during the recess.

Mr PHARAZYN would like to Bee the Government quite unfettered to take the subject into consideration during the recess. He would support the amendment.

Mr HUNTER would support tho amendment. He saw no objection to the system of deferred payments, because a similar source of revenue was derived from rents in Canterbury and Otago, the revenuo of the latter province from rents alone being as much as £80,000 per annum. The step was one in the right direction, and he would support the amendment because it dealt with the principle in a broader manner than the motion. Mr DRANSFIELD was sorry that it had been thought advisable to propose an amendment, because all he wished to do was to obtain an expression ef opinion on the matter. It was evident that the Council was protty ■well agreed on the matter, and he wished to see the motion passed for the guidance of any future Government. Mr BUNNY withdrew his amendment by leare, and the motion was put and unanimously agreed to. BIBTEICT HIGHWAYS BILL. Mr A. MILNE moved for leave to introduce s bill to continue the operation of the Highways Boardß Ordinance, 1867. Mr BUNNY seconded the motion. Leave was given to introduce the bill, and it was read a first time, and ordered to be printed and read a second time to-morrow. CLBEE OP COUNCIL. The adjourned debate on the appointment of a Clerk to the Council in tho room of Mr G. W. Jordan, resigned, was then proceeded with. Mr HALCOMBE moved as an amendment on the original motion, that Mr J. M. Taylor be apppinted to the vacant office. As an old and respected colonist M r Taylor hud many claims on tho Council, and he therefore proposed that Mr Taylor should bo appointed Clerk. Mr BUNNY had much pleasure in seconding the motion. Mr FAG-AN said that he had promised to vole for Mr Bryant, on the understanding that no one else was coming forward, but he had since ascertained that Mr Taylor was coming forward. He was sorry he had not known that fact earlier, but having promised to voto for Mr Bryant, ho felt bound in honor to keep that promise. Mr HALCOMBE handed to the Speaker an application from agentleman named Haywood. Mr HUTCHISON mentioned to tho Council that he would have had great pleasure in proposing the name of Mr Haywood to the Council for the office of Clerk, but as ho saw that hon members' minds were already made up, and there would be bo little chance of bis success, ho thought it better not to do so. Mr PEARCE explained that ho had proposed Mr Bryant bb there was no other candidate proposed. Tho Speaker had sanctioned the proposal of Mr Bryant, and having promised to support Mr Bryant he felt bound in honor to do so, and if necessary he would divide the House upon it. At the same time if Mr Bryant waß in a minority he would have great pleasare indeed in supporting the nomiHation of Mr Taylor. Mr BRANDON spoke in favor of Mr Taylor. Mr ANDERSON thought at tho time of the vacancy being made known it would be an excellent thing if some time had been allowed to consider the applications of persons willing to fill tlin position of Clerk of the Council. Circumstances bad brought about just tho state of things he desired, and he availed himself of the opportunity to state that a better man «ould not be found for tho position than

Mr Taylor. As a man of business habits and as a person who had had some experience as a clerk of the House of Representatives, they could not come to any other conclusion than that they should appoint Mr Taylor to the office.

The SPEAKER then put tho questionThat Thomas Muir Bryant bo appointed to the office of Clerk to tho Council, and the Council divided, with tho following result :— Ayes, 10 ; noes, 11. Tho motion that Mr J. M. Taylor bo appointed to the office wes then put by the Speaker, and declared to bo carried on tho voices.

The SPEAKER took the opportunity of complimenting Mr Jordan on the effective manner in which he had discharged the duties of his office. The assistance he had received from Mr Jordan had in no small degree lightened the duties of Speaker.

PATENT SLIP BILL. On the motion that the bill bo read a third fcimo,

Mr ANDREW moved that tho bill bo read a third time that day six months. He did not wish to be misunderstood. Ho considered the patent slip an excellent thing, because what benefited the centre benefited tho outlying districts. He in no way underrated the benefit of the slip, but we could not have a patent slip and a graving dock. If they had had a statement of their financial position before them it might be a different matter, but all they know about their position was that their finances had been impounded by the General Government. Many reasons had been urged why the Patent Slip Bill should be immediately passed. One was that tho Superintendent was going Home, but why could we not consider the advisability of having a slip at a future time, and send homo the result in any other way as well as in DrFeatherston's portmanteau. Another roason was that Sir Charles Clifford was here, but how was it that Sir Charles Clifford had been here for several months and- wo had heard nothing of the powers granted to him by Kcanard Brothers til] now. But lie saw objections to all these reasons, and the laost noticeable one wsb that our finances were in a disgraceful state. It had been said that it was due to Messrs Kennard that we should completo the contract, but efforts had been made on both sides without any satisfactory result. Tho difficulties of the province were sufficiently great without adding to them in the way proponed. What had become of the report of the Finance Committee ? They had thoso pleasant Estimates before them, but they were of little value in showing tho real position of the province. For instance, what was the use of Dr. Featherston putting £14,000 on the Estimates as the value of the land given away by the Defence Minister? Would any of the enterprising merchants whom ho saw around him be inclined to givo £14,000 for tho handsome asset set down in tho estimates.

Mr BORLASE opposed the motion. He thought hon. members should bow to the decision of the Council already arrived at. Mr HALOOMBE must protest against the constantly reiterated opinion that tho province was in a bankrupt position. To say that the province was bankrupt was to say what was absolutely untrue. Hon. members were defeating their own object in doing so. The province never was in such a good position as it was at present. He would say that if they were to put up the block at tho Manawatu for competition they would nob only be able to pay their debts, but would have a handsome balance Ho must say that he would always repel such slandere. As a member of a Government who had to bear such stigmas, ho would never miss an opportunity of giviug them his flat contradiction.

Mr HUNTER opposed the motion. It would be one of the finest works in the colony, and it would be tho duty of the Council to pass the bill. There was no doubt that some recognition of the claims of tho Messrs Kennard should bo made, as tkey had imported a very great deal of valuable property, for which they certainly should receive some compensation.

Mr MORGAN said he was sorry to say that he must agree with the hon. member for Wairarapa. They would bo binding their future Superintendent to a line of conduct which he might find it most irkrome to carry out. There was no provision in the bill tint the making of the contract must be exclusively confined to the Messrs Konnard ; other contractors might be dealt with. There wore many other reasons why tho bill was objectionable, aud he would support the motion of Mr Andrew. Mr PHARAZYN deprecated tho obstruction of the hon. momber for Wairarapa. The SPEAKER then put the question that the bill be now read a third time, and the House divided with the following result : — Ayes, 16 ; noes, 3. The bill was then read a third time and passed. ADDEEBS IN EEPLY. Mr HALCOMBB moved that the consideration of the address inj reply be considered tomorrow. Agreed to. EDUCATION AMENDMENT BIKD. The discussion on this bill was adjourned till to morrow, and the remaining orders on the paper being postponed. The Council then adjourned till 3 o'clock this day.