FRIDAY, 11th SEPTEMBER.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXIII, Issue 2731, 12 September 1868, Page 6

FRIDAY, 11th SEPTEMBER.

The Speaker took the chair at 2 o'clock. PETITION. Mr WOOD asked the Government what steps are being taken in order to give effect to the recommendations contained in the report of the Petitions Committeo on the petition of James Spencer and others ? The Hon. Mr STAFFORD said the Government had recognised the hardship, of the case, and the Attorney-General had been instructed to draft a bill to meet such cases. Mr WOOD hoped tho Colonial Secretary would recognise the claim to compensation for the injury they sustained. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD said that when the bill was before the House that question might be considered. DESPATCHES. Mr TRAVERS asked the Defence Minister whether any despatches had been received from Colonel McDonnell. The Hon. Colonel HAULTAIN said that no despatches had been received. Mr FOX asked who was really in command at Tlawkes' Bay. Tho Hon. Colonel HAULTAIN said that Captain Withers exercised command there. He had also some duties to perform at Wairoa, and he might be absent at present. Mr FOX said he had asked the question because of an impression in the minds of hon. gentlemen that Colonel Whitmore was in supremo command when he was there. The Hon. Colonel HAULTAIN : Hear, hear. Major ATKINSON asked whether it was the intention of the Government to remove the forces from Hawkes' Bay. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD said that the Government had been obliged to supplement the losses recently sustained by other forces which were available. HANSARD. Major BROWN moved that the publication of " Hansard" bo deferred till Thursday, instead of Tuesday, as at present. He believed that if the publication wero deferred, the numerous complaints made might be prevented. Ho had not consulted either tho printer or the chief reporter on the matter, but by the delay in the publication more time would be given for revision. CASE OF WILLIAM RUSSELL RUSSELL. Mr McLEAN moved for leave to bring in a bill to authorise a grant of land to William Russell Russell. Agreed to. DRAINAGE OF SWAMP LANDS, CANTERBURY. Mr POTTS moved that there be laid on tho table of this House, copies of all correspondence between the General Government and tho Superintendent of Canterbury relative to the introduction of an act for tho drainage of swamp lauds in the Province of Canterbury. Agreed to. BANKRUPTCY ACT. Mr TRAVERS moved that the Bankruptcy Act Amendment Act, 1868," be referred to a Select Committee, consisting of tho Hon. Mr Hall, ■ Mr G. Macfarlan, Mr T. Macffarlane, Mr Curtis, Mr Reynolds, Mr Brandon, and tho mover, with power to call for papers and persons. Three to be a quorum. Report to be brought up in a week. Agreed to. CONFERENCES. Mr CARLETON moved that the recommendation of the managers of tho Conference in tho matter of Conferences between tho House of Representatives and tho Legislative Council be agreed to. The Hou. Mr HALL moved, as an amendment, that a further conference should be requested and fresh managers appointed. GOODS SIIIPPED — DUTY PAID AND UNDER BOND. Mr MACANDREW moved that there bo laid on the table of this House, a return showing the quantity and description of merchandise shipped — duty paid and under bond — during the past twelve months from the respective ports of tho colony, such return to specify tho port for which such merchandise was cleared out. Ho said this information would greatly assist in setting at rest the question of adjustment. Tho motion was agreed to. CASE OF MR OSGOOD. Mr REYNOLDS wished to be informed what means should bo taken to get the report of tho House Committee on tho petition of Mr Osgood. Tho SPEAKER suggested that the hon. member should make application to him when not in tho chair. TRIGONOMETRICAL STATION AND SURVEY MARKS BILL. This bill passed through committee. The re-

port was ordered to bo considered on Tuesday next. WESTLAND "WASTE LANDS BILL. This bill passed through committee. The report was ordered to be considered on Tuesday. WANT OF CONFIDENCE IN MINISTEHS. Mr KERR said he had not intended to speak on this question, but after heaving tho speech of the hon. member for Parnoll (Major Heaphy), he could not refrain from making a few observations. That speech was a tirade from beginning to end. He could not holp noticing the particularly bad taste manifested in the allusion to the Board of Inquiry. His conduct contrasted very unfavorably with that of the hon. member for New Plymouth in that respect. The hon. member then abused everybody all round. What he (Mr Kerr had stated on a former occasion was substantially true, that the money due by Otago was paid into the bank to the credit of tho province of Auckland. It was not true that only £1200 of railway plant had been sold. On the contrary, some £3000 worth had been sold. It was also substantially true that certain scraps of land were sold. Then the hon. and gallant member attacked him (Mr Kerr) in a most " savage manner." Every district in Auckland had pronounced against provincialism, and the lion, member for Parnell would find when ho returned, that he would not represent but misrepresent his constituents. (Laughter.) He had anxiously looked for the promulgation of a policy by the hon. member for Rangitikei if perchance ho could vote for it. But he had been disappointed. The proposal of a secretary for tho provinces would not do. Such an officer would be a sort of spy going through the provinces, and it would be found that while ho was managing ono province tho other provinces were going astray. He would give advice to the hon. member for Parnell, who had taunted other hon. members with selling their birthright for a mess of pottage. Ho would advise him to consider whether he, in the vote he was likely to give, was not selling his birthright for a mess of pottage. (Cheers.) Mr COLLINS would give his reasons for tho Tote he intended to give. He took pride in supporting tho Constitution as it existed, for ho believed it peculiarly adapted for such a country as New Zealand. Ho believed the policy recommended by Ministers could not be carried out. There was an absolute and admitted unfairness in the proposed adjustment. To Nelson £90,000 was to be given. Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes. How about tho relation of Nelson to Marlborough? Ho had heard that day of very large sums of money that were to bo given to the provinces ; he would like to know where tho money was to come from, to pay that money in cash. He would vote for the proposal that provinces should administor their own native affairs. He considered that if the northern provinces felt that they could manage tho Maoris better than the General Government, thoy should not bo donied the opportunity. He had heard of the too-ra-100-ral party and their policy, but he did not think their policy was quite sound. Ho thought the proposals of Mr Fox were the best, as a whole, to meet tho wants of the colony. A pause ensued and no member of either side of the House appeared desirous of continuing the debate. The Chairman read tho resolutions and was about to put the question. Mr BUNNY: Mr Carleton : He was much surprised that no hon. member had risen. The too-ra-100-ral party had been ridiculed. He (Mr Bunny) gloried in tho name (cheers and laughter) . That name would go down to posterity associated with a policy which pointed out the direction they should go, both to the Government and tho Opposition, when the causes which influenced the crisis were forgotten or had becomo obscured. Tho too-ra-100-ral — (laughter and loud cheers). Ho meant what he paid. But the Government had brought down their proposals and the hon. member had submitted to the House another set of resolutions. Ho believed that the propositions of the Government wero more advantageous to the country than those opposed to them. He could understand that a capitation tax of 30s was more attractive than ono of 7s, so long as the conditions of either or both wero not known. As to native affairs tho handing them over by tho hon. member for Rangitikei to provinces, winch were to be allowed a large sum for that purpose. That was a proposition to sustain the provinces for some time longer, and prop up tho tottering Provincial system. It was to make Superintendents . for a time longer potentates in their own territories. But thftt was a proposition which the House could not accept. The General Government would be able to keep down native expenditure. But it was not possible, after tho news they had heard during tho last few days, for the House to withdraw from the responsibilities which had devolved upon it. The hon. member for Rangitikei said he also was favorable to local self-government; but tho local self-government he desired, was to be nursed by the provincial system. But he was afraid that ho would havo to return to his constituents witho\it having received much benefit from either side. The Government did not appear to be prepared to grapple with the great question. While he had a chance of some substantial good to come out of the Government proposals, he saw nothing whatever that could bo obtained from those of the hou. member for Rangitikei. Wero the Middle Island representatives prepared to jeopardize their land revenue — to become liable for the conduct of four potentates of the North — four Kings of Brentford, and with the probable result of having to take back again tho charge of providing for native affairs H It was idle to suppose that tho Middle Island men would support a policy that was fraught with Buch disastrous consequences for them. They would tako upon themselves an amount of taxation of which they could not sco tho end. Uo trusted tho committee would show by a majority that the Government possessed the confidence of the House. (Cheers.) Mr REYNOLDS proceeded to show that tho hon. member (Mr Bunny) had made several misstatements. Mr BUNNY could give the figures. Wellington would get rid of an incubus of debt equal to £22,000. Mr D. BELL referred tho hon. member for Wairarapa to the financial statement. Mr BUNNY : Oh, that is not the adjustment I meant! (This avowal was followed by loud ironical cheers.) Mr ROLLESTON said ho regretted to bo obliged to vote against tho proposals of the Government, because thoy did not appear to him to .be adapted to tho present state of tho colony. Although he did not in every particular agree with the proposals of the hon. member for Rangitikei, still thoso propositions Beemed to recommend themselves to the approval not only of hon. members in that House but to the public at large. If there was any object in tho Government scheme it was to stop borrowing on the security of tho consolidated revenue. He feared that under the Government proposals there would be a scramble for what could be obtained from the Government, and that the evil for which so much reproach had been cast upon provincial institutions would not bo removed, but rather strengthened. Ho confessed that whatever adjustment could be made 1 would have some elements of inequality in it. Auckland with £45,400 charged on loans and a population of ,48,321 souls was liable at the rate of 18s 9d per head ; Taranaki, Gs lOd ; Marlborough, 14s 9d ; Hawkes Bay, £1 93 2d ; Nelson, 4s 4d ; Marlborough, Gs ; Canterbury, £1 2s 3d ; Otago, £1 3s lid ; Southland, £3 2s. If the whole of theso wero generally charged Auckland would receive, 2s 4d ; 'Taranaki, 13s 3d ; Wellington, 5s 4d ; Hawke's Bay would havo to pay 9s ; Nelson, 15s 9d ; Marlborough, 149 ; Canterbury, 2s 4d ; j Otago, 3s ; Southland, £1 19s. If any adjustment were to be made Auckland should receivo Us 3d, amounting to asum of £27 ,000; Taranaki, £l3s2d, amounting to £5000 ; Wellington, 15s 3d, amounting to £18,736 ; Hawkes Bay, lOd, amount- j ing to £220 ; Nelson, £1 5s Bd, amounting to j £30,600 ; Marlborough, £1 4s ; Canterbury, 7a j 7d ; Otago, 6s lid ; and Southland would have to pay £1 12s Id, amounting in tho main to £12,000. He feared tho consequence of the

policy which the Government had proposed. It almost appeared us if the hou. gentlemen on those benches could not see whither they were going, or, as the phrase had been used by a member of the Government " drifting," nothing could be forsecn but confusion and disaster from interference with the govermental machinery of the couutry. Nothing was more common in times of difficulty than to find a scapegoat upon which to cast the reproach of all the disasters that were occurring. The Ministers appeared to havo selected the provinces for a scapegoat upon which to heap all the blame of their I own shortcomings. The House might remember how well the General Q-overnment had succeeded in the projects which it had taken into its hands to manage for the provinces. Their immigration scheme was a failure, nothing could be worse managed. Where was the Bay of Islands settlement ? What had become of the other settlements ? If they were to take charge of public work 9 and buildings, they had not far olf an example of their taste in and capacity for architecture. (Loud cheers and laughter.) Until recently the Telegraph had been disgracefully managed, and he complimented the hou. member (Mr Hall) who liked work, worked hard and created work (hoar and laughter), but had it not been for the Provincial Government the telegraph from Hokifika to Wellington would not havo been constructed. He (Mr Rollcston) desired the institutions of the country to be retained and improved, simplified where desirable, extended so that everything like violent change should be avoided, and that time should be given to them and the country to help themselves, and one another. (Hear.) It being half-past 5 o'clock the committee adjourned. DEBATE RESUMED. At 7 o'clock the sitting of the committee was resumed. Mr ROLLESTON continued : Explicitness in finance was its most important feature. It would be a ff reat mistake to neglect the maxim — " The greatest happiness for the greatest number." In the Provincial system was the element which operated against an evil that threatened plainly a democratic despotism. Political mediocrity, political infancy, political shortcoming of any kind was preferable to what was to be feared from a democratic tyranny. It was no > mean advantage that in the Province of Canterbury there had been a man chosen who had left his mark on that province, and sacrificed himself in ! the endeavor to prosecute his plans. He alluded to the first Superintendent of Canterbury. The second Superintendent also left his mark behind him. Their influence would not be limited to Canterbury, but would extend throughout the whole of New Zealand. He belioved the action of the Government was cramping and crippling the freedom of a great country. He believed the existing institutions wore working healthily, | although suffering from acute disorder, caused by circumstances not within their control. The lion, j I member read an eloquent passage from DeTocqueville, who described the degeneration of a people cramped by rules and regulations, with no volition, no means of penetrating the meshes winch were cast around them, and becoming at last a set of industrious animals, of which the Government was the shepherd. The thoughts of native affairs were tearing the minds of the members of the House in different directions. The Government had a vote to cover native expenditure. An expenditure of £100,000 was i going on. But that vote was mado up of the contingencies which might arise, and the Government were spending that money, which was meant to cover contingencies when the representatives of the people were assembled and in session. The Government said : " We will hold you bound by the peeuniai'y question while the expenso is going on." He held that the present system was utterly useless, and productive of the very evils it was intended to check. Nothing but disasters could result from sending up raw levies against natives, in a thick bush. The only argument was : "Wo cannot do othenviso than revenge our loss and punish Titokuwharo." If punishment could be inflicted, he wotdd punish. No steps were being taken to do justice, but steps were being taken by the Government which must plunge the whole country into disaster and the greatest danger. He belioved tbe first step to be taken was to remove the nondescript forces from the Patea. (Hear, hear.) The Government hart endeavored to raise a chimera in the mind of the House The Superintendent of Hawke's Bay, they said, might not always be Superintendent But what the country wanted was pacification, was quiet, and the policy of the provinces could only bo towards pacification. There were men both on the East Coast and the West Coast, who would bo successful in a policy of conciliation, but they should have withdrawn the wretched militury occupation. (Hear, hear.) The terrible character of the disaster that had just or-furred could not be disguised. That must br dea'.t with by active means — means which would not have been necessary two months ago ha<' native affairs been wisely administered. He would vote for what was necessary for the emergency that had arisen. lurespect to the Chatham Island prisontra, the attempt to intercept them was a most unwise, a most impolitic proceeding Their escape was creditable to them, for they committed no lawless violence, and their conduct, when not interfered with, was moderate. Hon members would hardly trust themselves in thinking what had become of the wounded and missing of theirown countrymen. Ho (Mr Rollrsfon) coulrl not help coming to the conclusion thnt Minister;, were incompetent to sit on those benches, that no confidence could be placed in them, that they had not invited confidence, and did not possess it. (Cheors.) When there was confusion without the possibility of escape, the only thing to be done was to clear tho board. (Cheers.) It is not through men like those hon. gentlemen on the Government benches that, at a time of danger, of perplexity and difficulty light aroao out of the darkness. (Cheers.) [Again a considerable pause ensued, and the question wus about to be put, when Mr Yogel asked the Ministers whether they proposed to give an opportunity to tho House of continuing the discussion. Tho Hon. Mr Stafford said two members of the Ministry had Bpoken, and vhen the hou. member for Selwyn had explained his abandonment of his financial principles ; when Mr Vogol contributed another essay, and the hon member for Mataura had spoken on both aides of the question, then the Ministry might be expected to speak. Mr Borlaso said that the Govoi lament were getting all their fighting dono by the tura-loorat party, and if they could take a good whipping let them have a good whipping. Mr DILLON BLCLLsaid there was a great difficulty on his side to know whether the financial statement made by the Government was to be debuted or not. The hon. member oppose (Mr Bunny) had hinted at a rery different kind of adjustment. There would appear to have been some pulling of tho wire 9 between the Government and hon. members. Tho opposition did not really know what they hud to answer. Tho conduct of the Government, was another contribution to the unfair treatment which the country had received at the hands of the Government in not letting it know what wcro the intentions of the Government. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD said if hon. gentlemen wanted to know what the question was he would ask tho Chairman to read the resolutions. The hon. member for Mataura had hinted at lobby rumours. Those rumours were liko thut brunch of literature called historical romance— "Fiction founded on fact." Some were very lively and very startling. He (Mr Stafford) hud not the facilities for gathering these rumours as the hon. gentleman. However, they would not uffect tho main issue. The Government wanted to hoar those hon. members who were entitled to be heard upon n large financial question. Mr iS'l EVENS euid thut he would show hon. geutlemen there had been no abandonment of financial principles. He would inform hon. jjentltMiien upon the matter when the proper time came. Mr YOGEL said he had read the lines of the poet —

"The sunset of life gives us mystical lore, And coming events cast their shadows before." — The hon. the Colonial Secretary must be fast drawing towards the close of his official career. (Laughter and oheers.) It; would be cruel to Ministers to call upon him (MrVogel) to address the House. The position reminded him of the Irishman who said his son Larry treated him best because that The CHAIRMAN said those personal interpolations had nothing whatever to do on the subject before the Committee. Mr. FOX thought the personal chat was not very dignified. Every person had heard that communications had been taking place between, the too ra 100 val party. One member of the too-roo-troo M-ru lal troo-ral— (loud laughter) — party had boasted that all the terms were settled, and those terms were not those which the Ministers submitted to the House. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD said the hon. member for Rungitikei was endeavouring to elevate^ a mere question ot detail to a high ministerial issue. The Government were always friendly to the " country party," and had several satisfactory interviews with them, and the Acting Treasurer would bo prepared to bring down certain modifications of detail when the other resolution came before the House. If the hon. member (Mr Bell) would state his questions, he (Mr Stafford) would answer them. Mr DILLON BELL said as a substantial difference had been made the House had a right to know what that difference was. Any alteration was a re-adjuatment, and went to the very essence of the Government propositions. Therefore these modifications should have been explained. Was it true that instead of £90,000, £150,000 was to be given to Nelson ; he would like to know whether there was any alteration in the sum to be paid to Westland or any other Province ? The financial system seemed based on a prophetic vision of thirty-six years. But in thirty-six hours Ministers turned round. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD, said notwithstandine the leader of the Opposition had Baid thej would not make finance a party question, yet fch^y camo down with a vote of want of confidence wliifh involved a party fight of life and death. The question now was the resolution. Mr DILLON BELL said the hon premier said he would give an answer — that was information. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD— I never said I woultl answer those questions. [Loud shouts of oh ! oh ! oh ! the voice of the hon. member fot Lyttelton being plainly discernable.] The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD : I know I have not voice enough to oppose to that of the Bull of Lyttelton. (Oh ! oh ! oh !) I never meant to huve answered those questions. The hon. member misunderstood me. Mr DILLON BELL appealed to every " gentleman" in the House whether he had not put the common and ordinary interpretation. He begged the hon. gentleman's pardon, ho was bound to accept his interpretation. Mr G. MACFARLAN said ho considered it more honorable in a member sitting silent in that tJouse than shaking words by which he would not afterwards abide. Mr LUDLAM concurred in the Government propositions that there should be a dissolution of the partnership account. He believed that adjurtment. was a matter of detail, and open to modification, If it had not been left so he would not vote with the Government. He repudiated the insinuation that the North desired a war for the purpose of getting an expenditure out of the land revenue of the South. He considered the £100,000 promised by the leader of the Opposition for native purposes was nothing but a bribe to provinces. The hon. member for Rangitikei did not cay in what proportions he would divida it. It would make Superintendents of Provinces masters of them. The native war was the result of the policy of confiscation. It was neglecting to punish the native when he committed crime that led him to rebellion. If he stole your coat and you looked over that he would steal your horse or your cow, if you looked over that he turned you out of your house. If they had been vigorously dealt with when they first resorted to murder the present condition of native affairs would nut have existed. The Province of Wellington was bankrupt, she had stopped payment fom the Ist of July. If the hon. member for Rangitikei were in power he would proclaim that the Manawatu block was purchased from the natives. That meant war. The outlying districts wore in [an exceedingly bad sta^.e. His experience of the policy of the hon. member for Rangitikei was to vithholdortakefroinonedisfcricttopamperanother Was that a policy to which the outlying districts* were to be delivered up tied and bound ? (Cheers). The Chairman left the chair for twenty minutes. Mr DILLON BELL said he would prefer, if rhe Government would not object to an adjournment of the debate, to adjourn the debate. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD said the Government were in the hands of the Committee. After a short discussion progress was made and reported, and leave given to sit again next sitting day. Messages were received from the Legislative Council agreeing to a further conference upon standing orders, also a message announcing their disagreement with the decision of the House upon certain clauses in the Weights and Measures Bill. The Juries Bill was considered in Committee, progress mude and reported, and leave given to sit again. The House adjourned at 20 minutes to lo'clook.