HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXIII, Issue 2730, 10 September 1868, Page 4

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 8. The Speaker took the chair at 7 o'clock. PETITIONS. Mr FOX presented two petitions from certain of the inhabitants of Auckland expressing their anxiety at the prospect of organic change in the Constitution of the country, and praying that no such organic change may be adopted before the next general election. Mr MACFFARLANE presented a petition from the Maori inhabitants of the Waikato, praying that measures may be taken to elect to the General Assembly a member to represent the Maori people of that district. CASE OF MB BUSBY. • Mr WILLIAMSON asked the Honorable the Colonial Secretary, if there be in the records of the Government any copy of the Reports of Proceedings of tho Legislative Council of Hew South Wales, during the time when New Zealand was a dependency of ; that colony, on the occasion when Mr Busby and other New Zealand land claimants were heard at the bar of that Council — and especially of the speech delivered by Sir George Gipps on their case ? And if so, whether the j Government will cause the same to bo laid on the table of this Houso for the information of members during the consideration of tho Land Claims Arbitration Act Amendment Bill ? He thought it would be necessary to havo those proceedings before the Houso when considering Mr Busby's case. They were not before the arbitrators, and there was reason for thinking that those papers would give important information. It was necessary that every information affecting the decision in respect to so large an estate in the province of Auckland, should be laid before the House. TheHonMrSTAFFOßDsaidthathehaddirected search to be made for those papers. The search had not elicited any information. He had, however, succeeded in finding the speech of Sir George Gipps. He begged to lay that speech on the table. He had also been requested by Mr Busby to "lay on the table of the House certain testimonials, which could be inspected by hon. member. They would be in possession of the Clerk. CASE 01' MAJOR HUNTER. Major ATKINSON wished to ask a question of the Defence Minister without notice. He had seen it stated that the inquiry in respect to the conduct of Major Hunter had been ordered by Colonel McDonnell. Had there been any instructions sent to Colonel McDonnell from the Defence Office? The Hon. Col. HAULTAIN said there had been instructions sent to Colonel McDonnell. MOBTGAGES 01? STOCK BIIiL. The amendments made in committee in this bill were agreed to. The bill was read a third time and passed. FINANCIAL STATEMENT. On the motion of the Hon. Mr Hall, that the Speaker leave the chair, The SPEAKER thought there was no necessity to move Mm from the chair, as the sitting would be a continued sitting of a committee already appointed. Mr FOX : But there were certain resolutions to the financial statement ; which formed no port of the financial statemont, which had not .been inov,ed ; they should bo moved in the House. The SPEAKER thought the committee regular. The Hon. Mr HALL said he had moved the resolution on the night he made the statement. Mr TRAVERS requested that tho record of the proceedings on that occasion might be read. The Clerk read the record of the proceedings sfrom the journals of tlje House. The Speaker thought the proceedings perfectly

' Mr TRAVERS said the question was affecting, in an important manner, the proceedings of the House. The notice for a committee was originally to consider the financial statement, and that alone. But the resolutions referred to had been moved without notice. Notice was required to move substantive resolutions such as they were. Mr CARLETON said that if the Hon. Mr Hall had not moved a resolution at the close of his financial statement he would have required the Acting Treasurer to do so. Last year the Treasurer concluded his statement by moving that £5000 be voted to her Majesty. Mr FOX took a further objection : that ono of the resolutions proposed to pay £90,000 to the province of Nelson. That was cleaiiy an appropriation. After some further discussion, the Speaker having decided that the committee was regular, the House wont iuto committee. '* Mr TRAVERS : Mr Carleton, may I ask what is the question before the committee ? Mr CARLETON read the first resolution. Mr BORLASE : I move that you, Mr Carleton, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Ido not see the resolution on the Order Paper. Tho House is not therefore- prepared to consider it. Mr FOX said he had to move au^amendment of more serious import. It was an amendment which affected the trustworthiness of the Govornment. When the House would hear the whole case which had been barely hinted at by the Acting-Treasurer, it would not proceed to consider the resolutions of tho Government, but might consider it proper to affix the strongest censure upon tho conduct of the Government. Tho ease had been mystified by the hon. gentleman (Mr Hall) in a way not creditable to him. He (Mr Fox) referred to the fact that £43,000 had been raised by the Treasurer without the authority of law. It was raised nominally under tho Public Debts Act. But the amount raised had been in excess of what was required. It was acknowledged that the sum in excess had been borrowed without tho authority of law. That was owing it was said, to tho I fact, that a considerable portion of the Canterbury debentures had been sold of which tho Government were ignorant. That statement offered to the House an entirely false issue. That even, if true, was no excuse at all. The Colonial Treasurer he (Mr Fox) must think knew perfectly well what he was doing when he did that, and that by so doing the public creditor was deceived. Whatever the Colonial Treasurer had done the House and the colony were bound by. That ho admitted. For doing what had been done, tho Government would have been in any other country liable to impeachment. It was an attempt to make things sweet with the bondholders. The Treasurer was authorised to raise a sum not exceeding £260,000. The question affected the integrity of tho Governthent. (Tho hon. gentleman read, the advertisement published by the Colonial Treasurer in England). He (Mr Fox) believed such a transaction to be most discreditable to the Government. Mr REID was not surprised at the course that had been taken. The House had beon in session nearly two months, and the effect of tho motion would be to postpone the business for eight days. He thought the issue involved should not be tried upon a motion that the Chairman do leave the chair. The Hon. Mr HALL said tho hon. member for Rangitikei had used plain language. Ho Bpoke of passing the strongest censure upon the Government. If that were his meaning he ought to have given the Government some little notice — even the smallest notice — even five minutes notice of his intention. The hon. gentleman had not been generous towards tho Government — and had charged him Mr Hall with disingemiousness. He would rely upon the House to believe that such was not a part of his character. The financial statement was at least an honest and straightforward statement. He would clainvtthe indulgence of the House while he would explain. The Colonial Treasurer was authorised under the Public Debts Act (Schedule B) to raise £1,114,000 for purposes specified in that schedule. | Mr TRAVERS : If wanted. The Hon. Mr HALL : It was not known what was wanted. He believed there would be some excess. But that excess would be very well employed in paying off Treasury bills. Mr TRAVERS said the object of the act was to authorise the Treasurer to raise what sum was " wanted." The sum named was" supposed by the House to cover all the necessities of the case. No one knew better than he what would cover the necessities of the case. He had all the means of exact knowledge. The question was, did the Treasurer boi'row more money than lie wanted ; and did ho know that he did not want the amount ho borrowed. Had he therefore borrowed £40,000 more than he was authorised to borrow by law. Did he raise it with the knowledge that ho was pledging tho credit of the colony to a greater extent than the law allowed. Was that a mere indiscretion ? They saw "about" £300,000 covered by £40,000 to be raised in excess of the amount authorised. I There was another little indiscretion to which he would invite the attention of the House. Last session tho Treasurer said the provinces were in- i debted to the General Government in a sum , " somewhat" exceeding £183,000. Did the " some- . what" cover the difference between that sum and | £325,000. He would support the motion, for ho could imagine nothing more disastrous than any doubt in the mind of the public creditor with respect to the integrity of the colony. Mr CARLETON said tho hon. member for Rangitikei had put a rider to his motion to the effect that tho committee had no confidence in tho Government in consequence of the transaction by which the Colonial Treasurer had raised £43,000 without authority of law. He Mr Carleton considered the rider out of order, as no rider could be appended to a motion for adjournment ; and secondly, because tho first part of the motion would put an end to the committee, and there would be no opportunity of reporting the whole motion to the House. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD said the opposition ! in consequence of a failure of tactics had endeavored to forestall the discussion, and to attack an absent man, many of whom would be frightened if the Treasurer only looked at them. Some of the small men would have yelped out of the House if ho were in tho House. Tho understanding of the House had been insultpd ever since the debate had begun. Now ' tho truth was that there was no possibility of knowing what sum would be wanted. It was not known what would be required to raise the loan, it was not known what would be the brokerage. Therefore, there was no such charge as had been made. He knew that some very loose transactions had been made in times past. He remembered a sum of £800,000 having been dealt with in a way that if referred to a hypercritical opposition, might havo deserved very nasty names. He had received independent testimony that Mr Fitzherbert wasMficcoinplishing a very dillicult and useful work. It should not bo the practice of charging public men with incorrectness especially in regard to money transactions. He warned the Houso how it tolerated a stigma bei#S; put on public men. He believed that when Mr Fitzhcrbert returned ho would be able to give the fullest and most ample explanation. Nothing could have been more candid or straightforward than the communications of Mr Fitzherbert. It was an attempt to cast upon the Houso the stigma of deliberate fraud. The House should know what it meant. It was not convenient for the Opposition to discuss tho question that night. The Government had succeeded in putting their resolution first. He hoped tho House would not allow itself to be further insulted. Mr YOGEL thought that it was a sign of weakness iji tho Government to try to ibrce their resolutions on for the purpose of evading a vote of want of confidence. The Colonial Secretary had endeavored to fasten responsibility on the Treasurer and tho Crown Agent without accopting the responsibility. He had literally aiavrled out of the responsibility which properly attached to his Government. He would prove there was a deliberate over-issue. The charge of- one per cent, and three per cent, to a province in the way

of discount, that altogether would amount to only £16,000. It was said that the cost of raising the loan would be £10,000. The Hon. Mr HALL: Not beyond the brokerage. Mr YOGEL : I did not say so. The hon. gentleman (Mr Hall) said if too much had been raised so much the better. That might suit the new school of finance. There should bo no overborrowing without the express sanction of the House. The Hon. Mr Stafford had said the Treasurer could borrow soven millions if ho liked. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD: I absolutely deny it. Mr YOGEL : That was the effect. Mr STAFFORD -. I deny it again. I never said so. I repeat I absolutely deny it. Mr YOGEL : The hon. gentleman might deny it fifty times over if he pleased. There had been a deliberate over borrowing which was discreditable, and would be scouted when the particulars were known. The Hon. Mr RICHMOND expressed his dissent. Mr YOGEL did not think the hon. the Native Minister knew anything on the subject. If that hon. member had two courses open to him, one overground and the other underground he would prefer the underground one. The credit of the colony had been pledged to the extent of £43,000 which the House had not sanctioned. ! The Hon. Mr Stafford and the Hon. Mr Hall left the House. Mr YOGEL: Tho moment a serious charge was made against the Government they went out. i There had been constant deceit practised upon ! tho House. He would prove it had been the I habit to put down certain sums for defence, and ! when the result became known it was found that the House had been deceived as to tho amount required. He was not to be deterred by being accused of an attack on Mr Fitzherbert. That gentleman might be out in two years or in five years if all the debentures were to be signed in duplicate. The transaction under consideration was one only of many instances in which the House had been deceived. There was a statement made by tho Treasurer last year, he said the native expenditure the year before last was £69,000, last year he said it was^only £23,000 or one third of what it was the year before. So it appeared in " Hansard" and yet the Treasurer had surreptitiously altered the figures and the text of a public document, making the figures £49,000 or one third less than last year. It was stated in another document that £21,000 was the native expenditure, while the sum stated by his Excellency in his despatches home was £34,000. That must have been a deliberate attempt to mislead. In another case £70,000 was put down, whereas £150,000 was tho sum. Was the House indifferent to discrepancies which so deceived? Better have no financial statement. Sums were transferred, and might be spent without any estimate whatever. Was the House indifferent to that ? Tho statement showed a larger sum transferred to revenue, and a larger sum expended out of revenue and loan together than was authorised by the Houso. He would show how tho last statement deceived. The hon. gentleman in the last statement said certain charges were only for eleven months. He said that was illegal, so it was. Ho (Mr Yogel) appealed to the hon. members for Sclwyn and Christchurch whether the whole of the money for the whole year had not been paid, and if ho (Mr Yogel) had not laid before them the most absolute proof that such was the fact. (Mr Tbavers, hear, hear.) [The hon. member proceeded to examine the items contained in the statement, and pointed out a series of inaccuracies varying from £1000 to £5000.] If financial statements were worth any thing, it was only on account of their accuracy. There were several items to be met by Treasury bills. What was the good of taking Treasury bills out of one page, and issuing them in another. The House was deceived by such a process. What was the use of paying out for Treasury bills if they wanted Treasury bills again. The GovernI inent would have £150,000 for native and defence purposes, but it was so divided that it was difficult to know that such was the case. The Colonial Secretary talked of seeing private v nnd independent letters. The hon. member (Mr Fox) had not said anything to implicate the Crown agent, and why, therefore, drag in the Crown agent? Mr Fitzherbert had put down, as a profit, on conversion, debentures which had not been issued. The Napier debentures had never seen the light. The money was borrowed direct at 5 per cent. And that was claimed as a profit. The Colonial Secretury had been hoaxed into making a deceptive statement to the House. It was well known that certain Canterbury debentures had been issued in tho morning and cancelled before night, and on t.hat, profit was claimed for their conversion. Deceit had been practised at home. Colonial agents would have said to Mr Fitzherbort, if he had explained to them the real state of the caso, that he could not havo borrowed any more than tho amount authorised. Was tho colony to have liabilities fastened upon it without any authority ? That was the question to bo decided i that night. What had made the Gorernment so ' courageous, when on Friday they said they could ' not proceed with a vote of want of confidence i hanging over their heads. The Government said, [ " You havo failed in tactics ;" and they were so humiliated as to avail themselves of tactics to avoid a most important discussion. That was a humiliation manifestly, to which tho Government wero reduced. And when they heard unpleasant truths, they walked out of the House. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Did the Government justify their proceedings. He (Mr Yogel) believed that whatever might have happened, the hon. member (Mr Fox) would have brought this question of overborrowing without the consent of the House before tho Legislature. He was bound to do it. If Governments will reserve their whole policy to be put confusedly into a financial statement, they must expect long spefsohes from hon. members. Was the principle of over-borrowing without authority one on which the House would affirm ? If they did so they might have expected that advantage would be taken of such a decision to employ it to the greatest extent possible. Mr CAMPBELL said the discussion appeared to him 'to bo one aguinst time. He thought the financial statement ought to be discussed as a whole. Ho hoped the House would not agree to the motion. Mr FOX explained the reasons which induced him, in fact, compelled him, to bring forward the motion. It was not for the purpose of avoiding the real issue. But the Government had departed from the usual practice. When there was notice given of a vote of want of confidence, tho usual practice for Governments was to postpone their measures untill an opportunity wero givon of discussing that question. The Government hud followed that practice in postponing, at an earlier period of tho session, tho Disqualification and other bills. But he would inform the Houso, unless he wero prevented by, — he would not say jockeyship or manoeuvre — he would, either by moving his resolutions, as amendments to those of the Government, or his own propositions as substantive resolutions, develope his policy and take issue upon that as against the proposals of the Government. (Loud cheers.) Tho question being put, there were several voices for the " ayes," and tho Chairman decided that the result was in favor of the "noes." There was an indisposition on the part of the opposition to divide. The hon. member for Munuherikia (Mr Morvyn) demanded a, division. Tho Chairman appointed Mr Fox and Mr Yogel tellers, but- as those two hon. members had not given their voices, there was no power in the Chairman to appoint them tellers. The Chairman believed that he heard the voices of tho hon. member, (Mr Parker) 'and the hon. member (Mr Reynolds) and appointed them tellers. They declined to act as tellers, and the Chairman vacated the chair, and the Speaker resumed the chair of the House. To him the case was referred, and he eventually ruled that it was a duty imposed upon the two hon. members to act as tellers. The vote of Mr Mervyn was claimed by the " ayea." When tho division was taken it was

' found that the result was as follows : — Ayes, 3 ; noes, 44. % This result wan announced amid laughter and cheering. Mr FOX would make a proposal to the Government which, if accepted, would simplify the matter very much. If the Government would consent to allow tho Chairman to report progress, and ask leave to sit again to-morrow, he would then move hia resolutions, taking the vote as a vote of want of confidence. He would be prepared to go into the whole matter, and take tho decision upon the whole question. After some discussion upon the order of prece- • dence, The Hon. Mr STAFFORD signified the intention oHhe Government to accede to tho proposition of the hon. gentleman (Mr Fox) on the condition that the committee should be taken as a first Order of the Day. The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and asked leave to sit again next sitting day. COLONISATION IN OTAGO. i Mr MACANDREW moved for leave to bring in a bill to enable the Superintendent of the province of Otago to establish certain settlements for colonisation in the said province. He said the present price of land in Otago was £1 an acre. If that price were maintained, it was probable . that the Weßt Coast of Otago would not be colonised for many years. That part of the province was coveied with dense bush. The intention was to mako special settlements, and to introduce settlers of a claBS who had always shown themselves the most enterprising and successful colo- j nists, lie meant the Nova Scotians, who had : ; shown themselves to be eminently suited for the \ work of colonists. He did not believe that the , i proposal would bring any immediate pecuniary ; benefit. It was, therefore in no provincial spirit that he introduced the motion. Leave was given to bring in the bill, which was read a first time. CASH OF MAJOB BBOWN. Mr CARLETON moved that the Hon. Mr Stafford be discharged from the select committee appointed to consider the petition of Major i Brown, and that the Hon. Colonel Haultain be appointed thereto. The motion was agreed to. METE KINGI PAETAHI moved thut Colonel M'Donnell's report on tho attack on Ngutu-o-to-Manu bo translated into tho Maori language. The motion was agreed to. The Petty Sessions Bill was read a second time, j also the Waste Lands Bill. PBOGBESS OF BUSINESS. The Petty Sessions Bill, the Westland Waste Lands Bill, and the Juries Bill were each read a Becond time. Tho Provincial Audit Act Amendment Bill, the Nelson and Cobden Railway Bill , and the Companies Bill were each read a third time and passed. Certain resolutions relating to conferences were agreed to. j Leave was given to Mr Macandbew to bring ! in a bill to enable the Superintendent of the pro- , vince of Otago to establish certain settlements for 1 colonisation in the said province. j Tho bill was read a first timo. j ] Mr CARLETON moved that the Hon. Mr j i Stafford be discharged from the select committee i appointed to consider the petition of Major t Brown, and that the Hon. Colonel Haultain be ' appointed thereto. i i The motion was agreed to, as was also Meti I Kingi Parotahi's motion that Colonel M'Donnell'B ' report on Te Ngutu-o-te-Manu be translated into the Maori language. The House adjourned at 11.40.

i WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9. The Speaker took tho chair at slp.m.5 l p.m. ! BECENT ENGAGEMENT AT PATEA. The Hon. Col. HAULTAIN B aid tho House would bo anxious to hear what information was iv possession of the Government. The only information received was a few lines from Col. McDonnell written on Monday, in which he stated that a severe engagement had taken place with Titoj kowaru. Major Von Tempsky, Captain Buck, j Captain Palmer, and Licuts. Hastings and Huni ter were killed ; men killed, 14 ; wounded, 24. ; The enemy fought like demons. Captain Rowan, wounded dangerously. Loss of enemy so far as ' known, 27. Most of tho men wero shot by tho enemy from trees. I.AW OP BEAL PBOFEBTY. Mr O'RORKE asked the Hon. the Colonial : Secretary whether it is the intention of the GoI vernment to introduce, during the present session, \ a bill to consolidate the law with regard to real 1 property, reference to which was made by his Excellency upon opening the present session ? , The Hon. Mr STAFFORD said a bill on tho ! subject had been drafted, but the various engagements of the Attorney-General had beon ao pressing that time had not been allowed to complete tho bill. j EVASION OP POSTAGE. ! Mr T. MACFFARLANE asked the Hon. the ! Postmaster-General, whether he is aware that 1 parcels of letters are being sent from Australia to New Zealand for the purpose of being posted here ' for transmission via Panama; and if so, what steps ' ! ho proposes to take to check these attempts to evade the present postal charges ? The Hon. Mr HALL said if hon. members would give such information (private information) as would enable the Government to take decisive action in the matter, the Government would be obliged. Tho Government was bound to protect the service against the encroachment of non-con-tracting parties. MAJOB HUNTEB. — BOABD OF INQUIRY, j Major ATKINSON enid he would not move the resolutions standing in his name after the i news that had been read by the Defence Minisi ter. (Hear, hear.) THE LOSS OF THE LOKD "WOKSLEY. j Mr EYES moved that the House do, on j Thursday, the 10th September, resolve itself into ■ a committee of the whole, to consider tho following resolution : — " That a respectful address be transmitted to his Excellency the Governor, requosting that he may be pleased to place on the Estimates a sum not exceeding £1369 16s 4Jd, to be paid to Mary Jane Briggs, William Dickon Hoyle, Fretwell W. Hoyle, and Major and Mra Campbell, in terms of the awards made by Mr I Commissioner Beckham, and in accordance with i the reports of the Public Petitions Committee." 1 Agreed to. DILLS INTRODUCED. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD obtained leave to bring in a bill intituled an act to amend tho Civil Service Act, 1866 ; a bill intituled an act to extend the application of tho Public Domains Act, 1860 ; also, a bill intituled an Act to authorise the Sale of tho Lowry Bay Estate, and the 1 acquisition of a Site for and tho Erection of a Residence for tho use of the Governor of Now Zealand. THE HANSAKD. Mr MAIN wished to correct a misroport in " Hansard." Major Buown also made a complaint to the effect that his slips had not been corrected. Mr Fox protested against being hold responsible for the reports of his speeches that appeared in " Hansard." He had always two diiliculties with tho slips sent to him ,a 8 reports of his speeches, the principal one was to correct tho nonsenso attributed to him. Mr Geobge Graham made a similar complaint. Major Brown said he had spoken to tho Chair' man of the Committee, who said there wore a great many complaints. WANT OF CONFIDENCE IN MINISTEBS. Mr FOX roso to move as an amendment to the resolutions appended to the financial statement, ■ That this House has no confidence in tho policy jof tho Government. Mr Fox then said — Mr Carlton : I shall not long detain the House on this occasion. What I have to say has beon the result of much deliberation, and I shall therefore be able, I hope, to compress it into a brief space. Besides which, the occasion is one of great gravity. I consider that the issue at stake is, whether a

system, I cannot call it a policy, shall continue, which even those who vote with the Government disapprove — a system under which the colony is Btaggering and iloundoring to some vague and unknown destiny — or whether we shall have some settled principle on which to take our stand, and some settled aim towards which we may direct our couvso for the future. It is my duty now to state what my principles are anA to contrast them with the proposals (1 cannot cull them principles) of the Government. The first reason I have tabled for my motion of Avant of confidence relates to the dissolution of financial partnership between the General and Provincial Governments.. I concur in that proposal — 1. Because the only prospect of reducing taxation. 2. Because it prevents complication of accounts and endless disputes. 3. Because the provinces will know what their means really are. ■ 4. Because it will prevent falsification of accounts by the General Government and the constant squabbles arising thereout. But it should not be carried out on any principle which should tend to destroy the feeling of individual responsibility on the part of the provinces, or create a desiro on the part of those which have borrowed little to go on borrowing wildly merely to be on a footing of equality with the others. The Government scheme has in it no element of fairness. It is a mere haphazard solution — based on no principle. It makes those provinces which have borrowed little, pay for the public works of those which have borrowed much — and as a corollary of this «it will certainly lead to demand on the part of the former to shave in the land fund of the latter. In lieu of this I propose a capitation tax of 30s per head to be paid to every province, till it shall amount to £400,000, when it should be reduced to such a ratio as would bring it down to that amount. The application of it should be fixed to the interest and sinking fund of each province, and bucli objects of government as it is the interest of the colony at large to see carried out, and in respect of which every province owes allegiance to the whole colony — such as harbors, gaols, police ; any balance to be at the disposal of the provinces. The amount at present on that ratio would be about £327,966. Mr Fitzherbert estimated for the last year £337,827 ; but they actually received £292,506. Mr Hall estimates for next year £309,296. Therefore, my proposal is about £10,000 worse for them than Mr Fitzherbert's estimate ; £35,960 better than their actual receipts this year ; and £18,670 better than Mr Hall's estimate this year. lam awaro that this is not so complete a severance of partnership as some mombcrs might desire ; but for most practical purposes it is complete. It puts an end to all uncertainty and conflict of accounts. To a great extent, and at least so long as it is respected, it puts an end to log-rolling. But, on the other hand, it does not draw so hard and sharp a line as the Government scheme ; and practically it is far more favorable to the Provincial Governments. I would subject them to no sudden revolution. I show them oxactly what they are to have. I offer them inducements to increase their population. All that the Government can do to aid them in the way of advice, counsel, and assistance they shall have. And looking at the question in that spirit, I do not go the longth which has been ascribed to me of considering that this House has no right to know what is going on in the provinces, and if necessary in extreme cases, to interfere. Whether our destinies might not have been worked out more satisfactorily if. the Constitution Act had been different hi respect to over-riding powers, is a question; but in the relative position of the General and Provincial Governments which now exists, I havo no hope that we should be able to repeal our Constitution in that respect. What we want now is to bring tho two Governments into harmonious action. I should not consider it an advantage to be able to convict the Provincial Govei-nments of mismanagement, or to find occasion to disallow their ordinances. On the contrary, I should esteem it a pi'ivilege to avert mismanagement, and render disallowances of provincial laws unnecessary. The Stafford Government would do all it could to get tho provinces into scrapes — I would do all I could to keep it out of them. In order to provide tho machinery for promoting hnrmony between the Governments, I would, in tho place of the Defence Minister appoint a Secretary for tho provinces. His duty it should be to know everything that went on in the provinces, to act as a medium of communication between tho mind of tho General Government and that of every province, and also between the minds of tho provinces, each with the other 3; so as to secure, as far as possible, uniformity of action, unity of purpose, and harmony of temper, instead of that conflict and uncertainty in action, and that feeling of intense bitterness which now exists, and which, if it existed between any two independent states, coidd only, and would quickly lead to war. I hold that tho General Government will have a right to insist upon the capitation tax boing properly expended, bo as to secure the main objects of national utility in respect of which it is granted. Among these I may specially mention harbors, which I would not place under the General Government, because in connection with them thore have been undertaken, and will and ought to be undertaken, many great provincial works ; but inasmuch as the use of those harbors, their safety and freedom are objects of national interest, I would subject the provincial action in respect of thorn to a certain amount of supervision on tho part of a competent department of the General Government. EEDtrCTIOX OF TAXATION. I much regret the manner in which this subject has been disposed of by the Government. Not only has it declined to attempt any reduction, but the Acting-Treasurer has endeavored to reconcile the colony to its present crushing burdens, by arguing that all prospereous countries are haavily taxed, wishing to delude us into the belief that they are prosperous because they are taxed. Tho fallacy is that which logicians call causa pro non causa, more commonly known a« the case of Tenterden Steeple and Goodwin Sands." The countries he points to aro prosperous, not because of taxation, but in spite of taxation. Being prosperous they are taxed — not being taxed they are prosperous. But tho industry of the most prosperous country may he paralysed, and the country absolutely ruined by excessive taxation, and that is what New Zealand is now suffering from in degree. If the Acting-Treasurer had ever travelled through any port of tho Turkish dominions he would have witnessed tho effect of excessive taxation. Tho most fertile soil abandoned to sterility — the bounty of nature, in the form of fisheries or of mines, utterly neglected — au entire absence of all reproductive works, a ])opulation always on tho verge of starvation, because whatever they produce beyond bare ncccasai'ics is taken by tho tax-gatborer. Theso uro some, and but some of tho results of that excessive taxation to which tho hon. member seeks to reconcile us. Wo aro fast hastening to a similar condition. For tho first timo in there our history, tho Acting-Troasurcr tolls us, is an actual decrease in our revenue — reports of fresh bankruptcies reach us every day, and colonists arc afraid to undertake those works of improvement and legitimate speculation by which, under good government, tho material progress of the colony woidd be advanced. What is all this owing to? Undoubtedly one groat cause is the excessive taxation under which wo groan. And yet, instoad of endeavoring to reduce it, tho Troasuror satisfies himself by attempting to roconcilo us to the condition wo are hi by the novel formula that tho magnitude of a nations taxation is tho measure of its prosperity. I do not say that any great reduction could bo effected at presont, but some might be : the savings in several directions claimed by tho Government in the annual expenditure might bo made available ; and if it were ever so small, an attempt to reduce taxation it would be acceptable as an indication of tho sincerit/ of the Government in its desire to reduce. lam bound to say that all the inferences I can draw from the speech of the Acting-Troa-

surer, lead me to the conclusion that the present Government doea not jntend to and will not reduce the taxation of the colony, while I think that any Government of New Zealand ought at least to make the attempt which I have no doubt could to some extent, though at present not to a large extent, bo successful. NATIVE AFFAIRS. Year by year the colony no less than the parent country, has been led to expect that the extraordinary expenditure on native affairs was just about to terminate. Year by year it has gone on, and apparently as long as a shilling can be drawn from the Middle Island or any other coffers, it is to go on. Much has been said of the liability of the Middle Island, on the ground of its representatives having supported a war policy; and it must be admitted that in assuming its share of the £3,000,000 loan it did not shirk the responsibility it had incurred. But the war is now over, 1 though local disturbances still occur from time to time ; and the Middle Island may well hope for some release from its liability on account of what, according to the accepted theory of more than one Government, is now only a matter of police. The middle Island seeks at present no absolute release ; but it doea insist, and I think most justly, insist that some present limit should be pufc to its pecuniary contribution, and some period of time fixed for th» duration of its liability in any shape. I must say that I think this is most just and reasonable on the part of the Middle Island. If the Government had adopted Borne more definite policy during the last three years than that miserable system of drifting which the Native Minister admits has been its policy, or no policy, the native disturbances might before this have been reduced to a mere question of police, in fact as well as in theory ; and I hold that if the occupation of the North Island is to continue ; if the colonizing operations of its provinces are to be extended, the native difficulty must be reduced, and that very shortly, to the category of a police emergency. Confident I am that in less than five years, if treated with energy, and through the medium of watchful, earnest, and influential administrators, the whole question will assume an aspect so different from what it now presents, and capable of being so easily treated, that the northern provinces will not shrink from undertaking the sole responsibility and cost of what will then be simply a portion of then* ordinary police administration. What I propose then on this head is to appropriate annually for two years from the consolidated revenue, for defence or native purposes, a sum not exceeding £100,000 ; and for the following three years, an annual sum not exceeding £75,000. This should be divided among the provinces of the Northern Island (I do not commit myself to proportion) and the administration of native affairs in each province be practically entrusted to the Superintendents of such province, acting by delegation from, and as the agent of the General Government. But in each case it should be distinctly understood that if any province exceeded its quota, it should have no claim for such excess iipon the colony. I have been told Jthat there is no security for any finality in this proposal. Independently of the belief which I have that the present disturbances will not extend, unless we have more of Colonel Haultain's proclamations scattered about, I have unbounded faith in the principle on which, it rests. Ido believe that the Superintendents can deal with this question, and that the moment the responsibility is thrown on them, they will find the way to deal with it. Rebellion in any province is simply ruin to that province. To' the General Government it is only a thing of remote consequence, involving a little expenditure, for wlu'ch it does not care so long as it has to meet it the fag end of a loan, a few thousands illegally extracted from the pocket of the British bondholder, or a patient people rejoicing in the blessed privilege of paying to a paternal Government over £4 a head. In connexion with the subject, I may mention that I would propose to place the administration of native affairs on the East Coast, at present at least, as far as Opotiki inclusive, in the hands of the Superintendent of Hawke's Bay, in whose hands, if the matter had been left two years ago, I believo all difficulties would have been settled long ago. I do not, however, wish to be considered as expressing any opinion on the question of territorial annexation to Hawke's Bay, or Poverty Bay, or any other part of the East Coast, that being a question not necessarily involved in the treatment of the native difficulty, and one, in the adjustment of which I believe there would be no serious impediment if left to amicable arrangement between the authorities of the two provinces primarily interested in it. In order to prevent misunderstanding, I must state that in using the words " not exceeding," I do not mean to leave any uncertainty in my proposal. Whatever the sum which this House might fix, should in such proportions as might be determined on be absolutely the property of each. Province, and if fortunately peace could bo maintained in any case without using it for de» fence purposes, the balance would be applicable for such works or institutions of a purely native character, as might from time to time be considered by those entrusted with its expenditure as the best means of confirming the friendship of the native race, and rendering actual defence ' expenditure less necessary year by year. The principul reason I have for retaining a strong control over the administration in the hands of the General Government is the fact that the action of any one province in native affairs may materially affect the position of others, and the question therefore in that respect has a federal aspect which prevents the General Government from absolutely shifting to other shoulder* uncontrolled responsibility in the matter. UNCERTAINTY AS TO JUTUBE INSTITUTIONS. Among the various causes which are fatally depressing the colony at this most oritical time, both in respect to political and private progress, the most serious is beyond all doubt the uncertainty which hangs over the existence of the Provincial Governments, ' and the nature of the institutions which it is proposed to substitute for them. This uncertainty is the whole political capital of the Government. It depends on combinations, excited by false promises and illusory hopes. It is ruiri to the provinces, that their territorial limits, their powers, liabilities and functions for the future should bo so uncertain, that they feel they need care for nothing but the present day. The gradual undermining of the foundations of tho provinces is death, and a lingering and painful death, to them. Better, a thousand times better, sweep them away to-day, and substitute something in their place, on which property, and enterprise can build, and public spirit stand upon with secure footing in its endeavors to promote the progress and welfare of thp colony. I am no enemy to local self government ; I am, and over have been, its warmeßt friend j but 1 I wish to see it made a reality and not a sham. I would extend it in every direction, but in subordination to, not set over the heads of Provincial Institutions. I contend that this House will at all times be justified in ensuring the performance of this duty by the Provincial Governments, and that if they are lax in providing for local self government, this House may justly interfere to aid outlying districts in obtaining such | subordinated institutions for local purposes as may be necessary and desirable in connection with the provinoial centre. I would extend local self government equally to agricultural and mining districts. But, in doing so, I would hold out no premium to discontent ; I would encourage a feeling of satisfaction, not labour to fan the flame of dissatisfaction with tho institutions of the country. In the policy which I have foreshadowed, I for--Bee tho gradual but constantly progressing assimilation of the laws, the interests und the institutions of tho soveral provinces. I forsee iv it a constant tendency to induce the provinces to unite for many purposes, till they can unite for 'all. I ccc an end to all that feverish political excitement which is become so large an- element of . our existing system, and I see the opportunity given I to the reinstated provinces to devote themselvef ■ i ■i , ■ . - ; . ■ ■ ; ' >

to those proper colonizing functions, which now are rendered all but impossible. Stewart's Island need no longer continue a waste— the West Coast of Otago unpeopled— Weatland uncertain of its future— Nelson in constant fear to do justice to its outlying districts because of the prospect of dismemberment— Tarannki without a career or a hope— Hawke's Bay opposed by an intolerable incubus— Wellington, Canterbury, Auckland, and Otngo paralysed by the dread of constantly recurring organ io change. In the Government policy on the other hand, I sec nothing but a perpetually dissolving view— a thing which has no solidity, no permanence, no Btability— a constitution by which nothing is conBtituted— a circle which lias no centre and no cir-cumference-I see a policy which is composed of insidious destructiveness in one direction, and oi purposeless drifting in another, galvanised into life by the application of a system of unblushing political bribery, addressed to those sections of the Community which ar& ever ready to sell grout political birthrights for small but immediate messes of tempting ai-d savory pottngo. In conclusion, Sir, I may be expected to say something on the much dreaded question of borrowing. I do so because I wish to conceal from this House no single thing that is on my mind. I do not honor the policy of reticence, and the practice of political reserve, especially when great principles are at stake. I am not in favor of present additions to the liabilities either of the provinces or of the colony ; ■whilst I admit that public works of an unquestionably reproductive character may, with advantage, bo carried on with borrowed money. I am mosb decidely of opinion that under present circumstances we must pause. We must bring back the colony into a position in which it may prudently expend, before we resort to fresh expenditure. Beforo we submit our shoulders to fresh liabilities we must bo sure that we can bear those already laid upon them. One of the earliest occasions on which I hope to see the colonial or provincial credit pledged, will be when we feel ourselves prepared to undertake fresh and extensive railway operations ; and I believe it will be wise policy in any government which may be in office to be gradually preparing the way for the introduction of some general scheme in that, direction, which may obviate the evils which in other and older countries have attended the want of system, of proper construction, and of proper government direction, particularly at the commencement. I have nothing further to say. The policy which I have proposed is based on fixed principles— and is in conformity with the spirit of the Constitution under which the colony has made much progress. On the other side I can Bee no principle— nothing which my mind can lay hold of with a view to the- future : and I do trust that this House will not suffer it to be carried any further than it has been, without at least the constituencies having the opportunity of expressing an opinion upon it at a general election of tli c colony. Mr GRAHAM supported tho Amendment. He complained that the Government had totally neglected the administration of affairs in Auckland, had wasted large sums of money, and kept up an irritating policy towards the natives. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD said the lion, member for Bangitikei had supported his amendment in a very temperate and business like manner. The lion, gentleman confined himself to the thread of the subject, and did not permit tincommittee to wander from it. The hon. gentle • man's speech might be considered to divide itself into two leading topics. The first was, that instead of the interest and sinking fund upon Provincial loans being paid from the Colonial Treasury, and charged as a fixed charge, they Bhould be still paid by the Provinces, and that. in consideration of that being paid, there* should be a capitation of 30a for all purposes of admin istration, instead of a capitation allowance of 7s n head as proposed by the Government after paying from the Colonial Treasury the permanent charges. The second topic related to native affaire, in which the hon gentleman stated he ■would allow £100,000— Mr FOX : A sum not exceeding £100,000. It might be anything less. The Hon/ Mr STAFFORD could not see how the scheme of the hon. gentleman would obviate log rolling. There was £400,000 to be divided among the Provinces, and in that he saw a very fruitful element of what was called " log rolling" in tho scheme. By the Government proposal such a thing was impossible. As to the payment of provincial stock the effect of the consolidation of loans would be, in a great measure, to destroy the identity of particular stock, and it would be impossible to make such payments quarterly, and it would bo no answer to the bondholder to inform him of the difficulty that had arisen. The charge that the General Government interfered with provincial acts; the Government never saw those acts until they were returned with the Attorney-General's minutes upon them. The appointment of secretary for the provinces would not harmonise the action of provinces, but would rather cause jealoueieF. Tho principle of the Government was not to interfere with any province, and when " a mess" was caused it would be known who was responsible. He disputed the fact that the depression of the colony was attributable so taxation. It proceeded from the fact that resources which contributed to the spending power of the country had ceased, and that perBonß were drawing large remittances for loans outside the country. The expenditure of two or three million of Imperial money 'md been withdrawn. Then the products of the country, gold and wool had diminished. These had diminished almost simultaneously. Had they come one by one the elasticity of the country would have surmounted the difficulty. He did nob mentio.i these things as an argument in support of taxation. With respect to the proclamation of the Hon. Defence Minister, it was a peace-making proclamation. Mr FOX : The hon. membor will see that the local papers attribute the disasters to such proclamations. The Hon. Mr STAFFORD : Tho hostility of the natives is an instinct of humanity not to be overcome by the promulgation of a policy. The second point was that the administration of native affairs should bo entrusted to Superintendents of provincee. Some superintendents might be well qualified to administer native affairs, others were not bo. Was it because the Superintendent oi Hawkeb* Bay was Superintendent that he wna qualified. No, but because he was Donald McLean, with more than twenty years experience of native negotiations. Were there to be four different native policies. The time was too lnte for that. The legislature would not do anything bo in. aao as to deliver up the natives to a Superintendent without reference to his fitne?B or qualification. There were members in that House and many outside it, who would not allow such a thing to be done. He was glad the hon. gentleman agreed with tho Government that there should be no more loans. Ho was also glad to hear him propose a reduction of luxation. But those propositions in his speech whit h were new ■were unworkable, and those that were wot new were identical with those of the Government. Mr CURTIS said he would be compelled tc voto against the financial policy of tho Govern ment for he thought it so unjust as to be fraughl ■with injury to tho wholo of the colony. He did not ngree v ith ; 11 the opinions of the Opposition and yet he muet give his vote against the Govern meut. Ho agreed with the proposition to die solve the partnership account. He believed then could be no reasonable reduction of taxation. Hi proceeded to show the gross injustice done to tin provinces. According to the tables appended t< the financial statement it was sought to bo showi that some provinces. would be large gainers; bul a closer examination would show that the\ would be large losers. In the case of Nelson sin would be paying £19,000 or £20,000 a year toward; liabilities of other provinces. The effect of tin financial proposal waß to give Otago and Canter bury £100,000 each and to take away a larg> cum from Nelson, from Auckland, and also fron Wellington. The only calculation of the liabili ties of provinces should be baeed upon a corupu

tation per head of their population. As to the separation of gold fields from the provinces with which they existed, the House should beware of the amount of special representation which would arise— representation owing to the migratory cha- ' motor' of the constituencies, attended with very serious difficulties. As to the capitation allowance of 7s, in some provinces the cost was 2s lOd per head, in Otago it was 16s a head, in Nelson , 20s a head. The injustice that would be done by the adjustment proposed would cause heart burnings that could not be dispelled until such injustices were rem ved. The Government policy , left every province in doubt as to its position — it was a policy of uncertainty. He believed the financial propositions to be altogether unsound, • and the policy of the Government was remarkable " for its uncertainty. (Cheers). Mr REYNOLDS had no confidence in the Go- • verumont. They were constantly occupied in ' devising small bribes to particular localities. Time was wasted session after session, and busi- . ness rushed through at the close of the session. The present Government impeded the progress of the Colony. On the motion of Mr Campbell the Chairman reported progress and asked leave to sit again next sitting dav. PROGRESS OF BUSINESS. The Regulation of Elections Bill was considered in Committee. Progress mad" and reported. CANTERBURY KITKHS BILL. This bill was read a third time. The House adjourned at ten minutes past eleven o'clock.