New zealand Parliament. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, July 28. petition.

Wellington Independent, Volume XX, Issue 2239, 1 August 1865, Page 6

New zealand Parliament. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Friday, July 28. petition.

Mr. J. O'Neillprosented a petition from William Powditch, Speaker of the Provincial Council, Auckland, relative to the Audit Act. He said, perhaps tlio more satisfactory method would be to allow the Provinces to adopt any regulations they might think proper, but they would find many valuable hints in the Petition ho had the honor to lay before the House. Petition received.

Colonel HAULTAIN presented a Petition from 250 military settlers at Alexandra, praying that under the present, circumstances of the Colony, a portion of her Majesty's troops might be maintained in that district, provided it was found impracticable to locate a sufficient number of military settlors there.

Petition read and received

Colonel HAULTAIN presented a Petition from the executors of the late Colonel Nixon, commanding the Defence Force in Auckland, with reference to the pension to the sisters of tho said Colonel Nixon.

Tho Hon. F. A. WELD said it was his duty to call the attention of tlio Speaker *to what he thought was a violation of the Standing Ordors of tlie House. The Petition referred to a money grant. He merely asked tho opinion of the Speaker, as ho thought no Petition could bo brought before the House which had reference to grants of money. He trusted the hon. gentleman would see that ho merely pointed out an irregularity. Mr. SPEAKER,— The ride referring to Petition is simply this — that no Petition shall bo brought before this House -which has reference to a grant of public money, but I tuink this Petition is not in violation of the Standing Orders, as it merely asks tho House to tako tho Petition into its consideration.

Petition received,

Colonel IIAULTAIN presented a Petition from Betty Hamlln, widow of Job Hamlin, who was killed by tho natives at Wairoa, stating that she was precluded from tho pension awarded to the widows of those killed in action, and praying that the House would take her case into their consideration.

Petition received

Colonel HATJLTAIN presented a Petition from Mr McCaskill stating that ho was precluded from having his claim to compensation investigated, and praying that the Houso would authorise the investigation of his claim. Petition received.

Colonel lIAULTAIN presented a Petition from Mr. Sampson Kempthorno, Secretary of the Building Commission at Auckland, stating that he had been summarily deprived of the emoluments agreed to bo paid to him, and praying that enquiry might be made into the matter, and that such compensation might be awarded as the House might think right and just.

Petition received.

Mr. W. AUCKLAND presented a Petition from a number of settlers of Auckland, stating that they had suffered loss from tho rebel natives, that their claim.3 had been investigated, but that nothing further had been done in tha matter, and praying that the House would take the matter into their consideration.

Petition read and received,

Mr. H. OARLETON presented a Petition from Charles Davis, Auckland, whose claims to compensation for losses sustained through tho native rebellion had not boon investigated by tho Commissioner in Auckland for want of dates. Tho Petition being in some respects informal, was refused.

Mr. JOHN WILLIAMSON presented a Petition from John Calligan, of Russell, stating that he was a settlor at Russell, and that during the the war at the Bay of Islands ho was ordered to tho stockade and was wounded by an explosion in the stockado and that ho was now unable to earn a living, and praying the House to grant him some pension. Petition read and received.

Mr. JOHN" WILLIAMSON presented a Petition from John Law-ley, formerly a resident at Kawhia, stating that ho was driven from his home in May, 1860, that he suffered severely since that, that he had applied to his Excellency's Grovornment, and that they had referred him to that House, and praying that the House would take his case into their consideration.

Petition received

Mr. JOHN WILLIAMSON presented a Petition from John Bolton who ritafced that he had suffered in his health from his attention to his business in the Post Oflico, that ho was now in declining health and unable to earn his living, and praying that the House would take Ms case into theiv consideration.

Mr. COX presented, a Petition from several electors of tho out districts of Canterbury, stating that in the outlay of the- revenue the outlying districts did not receive a due attention to their interests, and praying that their part of the district might be made into a separate province. Petition received.

The Hon. F. A. WELD laid on the table papers relative to tho Blockade of the River Thames ; papers relative to events that had taken placo in Auckland ; a return to an order of the House of Representatives dated December 10th, 1864, respecting the petitions of several Maoris. The papers on the motion of fcha lion, member ■were ordered to be printed. DISQUALIFICATION ACT. Mr STAFFORD asked the lion, member at the head of the Government whether it was the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill this Session to extend the operation of the Disqualification Act, so a3 to secure tho independence of the Legislature. The Hon.F. A. WELD replied, thatthe Government had not considered it necessary to prepare a Bill to extend the operation of tho Disqualification Act. At pi'esent tho Government were not prepared to say that it was their intention to bring in any such Bill. DEBTOR AND CREDITOR'S HCT.

Mr THOMSON", in asking whether it was tho intention of the Government during tho present Session to introduce any measure for fcho amendment of the laws affecting Debtors and Creditors throughout the colony, said that he believed there was great anxiety felb in this matter all over the colony, and he knew it as regarded Canterbury. Ho had boon ono of the Committee who had rocommended the present Bill to the House as a tentative measure, rather than as a complete system, and he was prepared to say that in Canterbury at least it had, from its working, proved a complete failure. It did not relievo tho honest debtor as had been contemplated, as he believed it was possible in Canterbury for a debtor to be six months in prison before ho could obtain relief, and it did not protect the interests of the creditors, as a dividend there was a thing almost utterly unknown. In fact, the Bill ought to be entitled an Act, for tho absorption of Insolvent Debtors' Estate by members of tho legal profession. The ATTORNEY-GENE HAL said tint though he would not follow the example of the hen. member in going into tho subject on this occasion, ho was prepared to admit that tho present Bill had proved a failure. There wero several reasons, howovor, ; sufficient to prevent tho Government from introducing a new Bill during tha present Session. He had during the recess seat queries to several public bodies and others as to tho working of this Bill, and requesting siggestions and some of these had only reached here within the last day or two — another reason was that other Legislatures older than theirs, had had clifli-

cul!",-' in perfecting a system, and that tho mutter was' even now before the British Government, on tho motion of Lord Wesfcbury. Government therefore thought it inexpedient to bring in any now bill till they saw tho result of legislation there. At the samo time ho would lay the answers 113 had received to his quorios on tho table, and would be ready to receive suggestions as to improvements in the mode of working the present measure.

Mi-. THOMSON said the answor of tho hou. and learned gentleman would bo received with much regret and no little dissatisfaction.

NKW PHOVfNCES ACT.

The Hon. F. A. WELD moved for leave to bring , in a Bill for limiting th,o operations of the New Provinces Act, ISSB. He said the New Pro- J vinces Act had divided tho opinions of members of j both houses very equally. In 1861 he proposed certain resolutions, and then lie stated that it would be advisable to consent to a repeal of the act. A session after that tho lion, member for Timaru brought certain resolutions before the House very similar to those which he had brought before the House on a previous session. Last session the question again arose and then he said it would beoomo his duty, being a member of the Government, to take tho action which he had before indicated when in the Opposition. This bill was framed as nearly as possible in accordance with that line of policy.' Thoy had thought it best as a first step to leave the matter in the hands of the Provinces. They thought that the way most readily and effectually to get to municipal government, would be to induce those Provinces themselves to set to work in that direction, and they had thought therefore that by repealing the New Provinces Act as regards such Provinces as mado that provision, they would arrive at the end in the most speedy manner. He would not say that they were not prepared to go further next session, but at present this was tho best bill that could bo devised. He therefore wished to ask the House for leave to bring in tho Bill. Leave granted. Bill read a first time, ordered to bo printed, and to be read a second time on Tuesday. THE COURT HOUSE AT KOUE-KOIIE. Before moving the next resolution the lion. F. A. WELD wished to lay on the table some further papers relative to the Court House at Kohekoho. These papers were a printed copy of a return asked for by the Legislative Council last sessionlUGlTTS OF TUB NATIVES. The Hon- F. A. WELD moved " for leave (o bring in a Bill for declaring certain rights of tho Aboriginal Natives of New Zealand, and for enabling tho Governor to appoint a Commission for certain purposes." In moving tho above resolution, ho would only observe that the first part of the Bill was to remove a technical doubt, and the second part was to enablo the Governor to oppoint a Commission, which Commission would be required to examine and report to the Governor as to the best mode of declaring an electoral franchise, &c. It would be generally admitted as a broad principle that such was advisable. There might be some differences of opinion as to mode. The object of tlio bill was to get such advice and information as a committee might be abl to give to enable the house to take action. The great difference between this Commission and tho Kohimnrania Commission was that this Commission would have a certain status, but would not in any way be a second I Assembly for the Natives. That was not the object at all. It wus a temporary Commission to advise and report towards a particular object.

Leave granted. Bill read a first time and ordered to bo read a second tirao on Tuesday.

NATIVE RKSERVISS.

The Hon. Mr. MANTELL moved "for copies of all papers, plans and correspondence relative to Reserves in the towns of Fort Chalmers and Dunedhi nmilo by His Excellency tho Governor in 1852-3."

Ho said these papers related to certain town re-fervesfc'.n-oughwhichinthe^iinDsofthoNowZealand Company tho Governor made native roads. Since those reservations were made tho question of His Excellency's power to do so had been raised. Although thathadoecurredl2years ago the ownership of that land had not yet been made clear. Mr. STAFFORD callod tho attention of tho House to the fact, thatthemotionwasamostextraordinary one coming from the lion, gentleman. It was well known that the Government had access to any papers which they might wish to lay on the' table, and he must express his astonishment at the hon. gentleman asking for certain papei'3 which he was supposed to have access to. There were certain reports flying about that tho hon. gentleman no longer belonged to the Government, but they could not trust to reports. All the movements of tho hon. gentleman had been made with an entire disregard of that explanation which was amatterof courtesy and parliamentary propriety when members commencod or ceased to take part in the Government of the country. Ho did hope that this opportunity would bo taken by tho hon. gentleman, or those who were so lately his colleagues, of making some statement of ordinary courtesy to the house of the fact whether lie still continued to bo a member of the Government, and if so why he has ceased to be so. He did hopo that beforo this motion was determined there might be, if only in courtesy, some slight explanation of the mystery which allowed tho member to be either in or out of office.

Tho Hon. F. A. WELD said ho thought it would be ruore advantageous to his hou. friend that he should give his own reasons. Ho (Mr Weld) perhaps should not bo able to give an explanation to the satisfaction of his hon. friend.

Mr. STAFFORD said ho did not ask the lion, gentlemen at tho head of tho Government. He merely asked for information.

Tho Hon. Mr. F. A. WELD said the resignation had been accepted, it was through the excess of printing that the gazotto had not

been issued

Mr. MANTELL said his hon. friend the member for Nelson, had a happy notion of fixing upon a misprint and asking a sudden question which invariably brought him to grief. The iirst question was why did ho join tho Ministry. That was a very simple question to ask. He believed he was wrong in joining the Ministry, because it had been too often the caso that he had gone in to give a hand when it was necessary, and when his services had been no longer required then ho had left. At tho eloso of last session ho happened to remain behind the other members on their return to their homes. Ho had been engaged to help his hon. friend at tho head of tho Government in his business, inasmuch as his health was failing On the day before tho steamer sailed in which ho had taken his passage, he went up to mako a final call tipon him, and to givo over all papors to him. His lion, friend then said the labor was too great forhim,andrequested him to join the Government. He mado ovory suggestion that ho could, and slill his friend requested that he would join the Government. He requested a delay of one day, and after thinking tho matter over, ho thought ho had no real reason to refuse, and with reluctance ho accepted it. Amongst his reasons for accepting, was one which would appear of slight importance to his friends. Ho felt that whon ho joined the Ministry, he joined it to work and to lcavo as as soon as the work was over, and he felt that in doing so ho was doing it against tho custom of the Houso. But ho hoped to satisfy tho Houso that ho did not take it from caprice. Ho looked upon immediate advantago to tho public, by tho addition of a working hand, to be greater than what his hon.friond thought. Tho constant application during the time ho was in office was too much for hia health. It was, an unvaried

round of official labor, morning, noon, and ivs}\\ and affected his health. Now for his reasons for quitting the Ministry. His taste had never led him to study Parliamentary tactics, but he w.u convinced thai; a Minister who hslcl a portfolio of a certain department was justified in hi)klm<; olFheonly solonsjastholincofhis coHen-jiiT* p.>'iMos was "such as ho could appro vp. Wli-jn tho uffiirs of the Minister for Native Affiirs wore of so much importance and occupied so nrioh tho attention of tlio House, ho should look stric'ly to tho principles on which he was allowed to carry on those affairs, and if he found himself checked by hi 3 colleagues, his only alternative wa-i to resign. Ho found himself in that position. The in inner in which ho was checked ho would leave to bo branch!", before tho House in the course of debate. Finding it to be the cage that his notion of tlio propor policy with regard to N;tbivo Affairs was nob th it which met tho unanimous approval o\] his cjllc.i'jjuos, he felt that his best courses was to rjtiro. He felt that if ft general meeting ol' the N";i!;ivo3 Avas to be held, he could not address tho jo N.itmvs in lerms which ho did not fool hiniiolf. ana ho felt that until they could look for (.hat, the pjrfcfolio of the Minister for Native AfFiirs hid better bo entrusted to other hands than his own. Ho had only to add that his Excellency had b?on pleased to accept his resignation. The Hon. F. A. WELD said parhap? tlio TIo-iw would allow him to make one or two remarks. He wished to confirm tho statement of hb hr.\. friend with regard to tho pressure put upjn him. Ho also wished to say that during tho' time h; held office no words could express the zoa! ".it l labor he hadputiuto the public service with great advantage to it.

Mr. REYNOLDS proposed as an amendment that the word " Native" should bo omitted in the second line, and that; after tho w>rd " D.inedin," the words " alleged to be Native Reserves" bo inserted.

Mr. MANTELL had very little objection to the alteration proposed by his friend, but he thought liis objection would be met by tho ad.lition of the syllable "un" to tho word certain.

The motion as amended was carried,

GOVERNMENT HOUSE, AUCKLAND.

Tho ATTORISTE Y-O-E N E RAL moved that a Select Committee be appointed to consider the circumstances relating to the transfer of Q-overnmcnt II jusc, Auckland, to the Superintendent of Auckland, and the proper disposal of the proceeds tliereof, to consist of Mr. Stafford, Mr. Robert Graham, Mr. Fitzgerald, Mr. Domett, Mr. Robert ! Pharaxyn, and Mi*. A. Richmond. He said in the last Session of 18G3 an Act was passed relating to Government House afc Auckland. The purport of that Act was to authorize tho Governor to convey to the Superintendent of tho Province of Auckland that property containing 8 or 9 acres of land for a sum of £25,000, it was then in con- ' templation to substitute for tho oldSeatofGovernment, another in the domain, and to apply the proceeds to the erection of a new House. This Act was pissed in 18f33. The ET.ou.so would observe that it contemplated tho sale of a pieco of land contain^ in between 8 and 9 acres. Upon the present" Ministry coming into oflbe, they found that a Crown Grant had been issued under tho advice of the late Ministers, to the Superintendent of Auckland, of the site of Government House, not including the extent contemplated in the Act, but upwards of fourteen acres, and not in consideration of £25,000 paid in money, but in consequence of an agreement made between the Bank of New Zealand and the Superintendent that that sum should be made available upon the requirements of tho Government for the erection of the house in the domain. It appeared to the Government that the matter should come before the General Assembly on several grounds. First, it appeared that the quantity of land Avas upwards of fourteen acres — the consideration money, which was fixed at £25,C00, and which represented the value of nine acres, would not represent tho value of fourteen acres — the money instead of being paid into the Treasury, never reached the Treasury, and was not in the Troa- j sury at the present time and was not under the control of the General Assembly, and what was tho main point of the case, tho building of the Government House in the Domain had never been commenced. No doubt, since tho removal of the Seat of Government, the appropriation of the money was no longer necessary, It appeared there- j fore to tho Government, that the House should have an opportunity of reviewing tho whole subject. He therefore asked " That a Select Committee bo appointed to consider tho circumstances relating to the transfer of Government House, Auckland, to tho Superintendent of Auckland, and the proper disposal of tho proceeds thereof. Mr. DOMETT said, it appeared to him, on looking at the names of the Committee, that tho bias was on the southern sido and against the Auckland side. The chances were, that the Committee would have a strong leaning to the AntiAuckland feeling.

Mr. J. O'NEILL said, ho very much regretted that a member of tho Government should have thought it necessary to bring forward such a motion as this, which would produce no other effect than creating tinploasant feelings at that early part of the session. It was a trivial question whether the land was more or less than nine acres, but on looking at tho grant this was entirely left out, but the boundaries were correctly stated, and that the hon, gentleman would notdeny, but as to the money not being available, the province had taken care that it was available, and the house would now have been nearly built had not tho presont Govcrnmont taken steps to prevent it. He trusted that no gentleman that would ever sit in that House, would have the hardihood to declare that the northern part of tho Island was not entitled to a Deputy-Governor. Did the hon. gentleman foi"get that the Governor, Bomo years ago, resided in Cook's Strait, and that then there was a Deputy-Governor at Auckland to carry on tho Government there. And would the hon. gentleman again rise in his seat and say that such a thing was not necessary now in tho increased population of the country, and therefore it was that the peoplo of Auckland thought that it was necessary to have a rospectablo residence for the Governor or Deputy-Governor when he did reside there. Tho question of the quantity of land was not one to bo interfered with by the House. It was not fair to bring a question of that kind before the House. Ho hoped that such a feeling as that would not be brought into tho House even though the Assembly was sitting in Cook's Straits. He hoped that a vight feeling would occupy tho minds of tho members of tho House.

The Hon. F. A. WELD said ho thought his hon. friend who had just sat down, hud misconceived tho question at issue. The question was not merely ono of tho quantity of ground, it was also a question of the payment of the £25,000 which was agreed to bo paid to the Colony by tho House of Keprescntatives on tho supposition that they wore giving niuo acres when they were really giving a larger quantity. (No.) Had they known that there was a larger quantity thoy would have asked a larger sum. They had paid in cash tho sum of £19,000 for tho building and they had soldi tfor£2s,ooo, not lcnowingtho extent of land they wore selling. Now that) £25,000 had never, to his knowledge, been placed in tho Treasury, as was required by the Act. It was not in the Treasury when they camo into office. Now ho supposed his hon. friend would ask thorn to advance (Auckland not having paid one penny) to allow the building of this House to go on. Now, wore they to put their hands in the colonial chest and advance the sum required when they were owing them tho money. Tho Act had bten violated. It contemplatod that the £25,000 should be paid into the Treasury at Auckland and it had nevev been paid to their knowledge. It would therefore appear clear that until they knew whether they wore to get that £25,000, it would

bo impo«siblo for his lion, friend to make hi 3 estimates. The question wa3, was that £25,000 to bo paid, and if so, what was it to be paid for, and they had thought it the fairest way to take a Committee, and this mis an impartial Committee. Tha gentlemen who composed it were selected from both sides of the House, whose tendencies wore probably as nearly fairly taken as they could be. They hud selected gentlemen in whom the House would iiavo confidence.

Me. R. G-RA.HA.M: said, in tlio year 1863, ho made an arrangement with tho Doniotb Ministry to hand over £25,000 for this piece of land. Ho was not aware of the quantity of laud. Tho boundaries wore tho guides in that purchase, and they woro thoroughly understood. Ife was agreed that a Bill should be brought in to hand over theIan:! for.-C25.00J, which waa to bo spent on a building in fcho Domain. Consequently, after a Bill had been prepared tho survey took place, and then it was found that an additional quantity of laud was included in tho boundaries that was not included in the Bill. After the Doraott Ministry the Whifclakor Ministry came in, and before they left oittcc, tho.3' had a Crown Grant prepared. He then tendered a cheque for &25.000, and tho Colonial Secretary authorised him to place itfco the credit of the Building Commissioners in order to enable them to carry out their arrangements. Ho did not think any unfair advantage had been taken by Auckland to prevent this arrangement being carried out. He thereforo did not care one straw how the result went. It was a fair transaction. Tho money was paid honestly and fairly, and it was tho duty of the Colonial Ministry either to put it into the Trsasury or to hand it over to tho Building Commissioners. (Hear, hoar.) Ho believed tho Building Commissioners, if- they had known that the money was in the Treasury, would have thrown up their commission in disgust. But they took good care to carry out their commission in good faith.

Tho CO LONIAL. TREASURER said his hon. friend who had just sat down had spoken with more liveliness than reflection. Ho was too conversant with the transaction of public business to speak of the omission to pay over such a sum as a mere matter of form. In these matters, matters of form became matters of substance. He could not but think that his hon. friend would agree with him that it was a very unfortunate omission that that sum was not paid into tho Treasury. Ho had no doubt that ho was perfectly conversant with the enactment of the Auckland Reserves Act, and they would see in the second section that the roquircment was very specific " upon the payment of tho sum of £25,000." Now to the best of his knowledge, the sum of £25,000 had never been so placed. It was not necessary at that stage to enter into controversial matter. It would open a large field of argument. It was unnecessary to enter into that topic at present. Nor was it fair to infer, that when the Government asked for a Committee of Enquiry on this question, that it thereby means to say that at no after time a Government House should not bo built in the Domain. The question now was, first, what was the amount of acreage included, and the next point was with regard to tho payment of the sum of £25,000. It had been shown that tho Act had. not been complied with, and it was a fair subject of enquiry which his hon. friend the AttorneyGeneral sought.

Mr. CARL ETON said, the Hon. the AttorneyGeneral, before moving for this Coinmitteo, ought to have given something like reasons, bub ho had listened carefully to tho observations ho made, and he had most, carefully ■ strayed wide of the gist of tho question. Tho points which he hal taken wore simpij those which had been answeredmost conclusively by the Superintendent.. He would tell that hon. gentleman what the giat of the question really was, and what were the points which were of importance. The first question was where was the hitch ? was it on the sido of the acreage or on tho side of the boundaries. It must be on one side or the other. He believed that tho hon. gentleman's knowledge would besufficient to prevent him forgetting the judgment of the Supremo Court in a similar caso in regard to Kawtui. The natives claimed then 2,550 acres. It was shown afterwards that the island contained 5,000 acres, but it was shewn, when brought before His Honor Chief Justice Martin, that the boundaries wove clearly defined, and his Honor decidod that where tho boundaries wore denned the amount of acreage was of no value against the boundaries. Tho next point and f/he more im» portant point wa9, that the General Government had come to a distinct bargain about the matterHe was quite sure that his hon. friend would never say that one Q-overnment would ever repudiate the engagements of a former one. (Hear, hear.) The Government for all practical purposes never ceased to exist. Ho simply knew a G-eneral Government in all casos. It was consecutive. The General Government made no mistake in the matter, in fact every member in the House knew it— that was to say among the late members. They deliberately, with full knowledge of the facts, gave a Crown grant for the land. He only -wished tho Hon. the Attorney- General had made them acquainted with his own views on the subject. Ho had said that ho confinod himself to tho weak argument in favor of his motion, utterly ignoring tho two principal arguments, and he took up an argument which was sufficiently answered already — that he considered that the £25,000 for the nino acres should be fairly taken as the value of tho acreage, and in tho same proportion the remaining acreage should be charged for, but if hou. gentlemen would look at the Superintendent's argument they would find that the hon. gentleman was entirely wrong. He fcrustod that the hon. gentleman would enlighten him with regard to tho position of tho Supreme Court and its bearing on tho question, and that he would inform them what wore his idoas of tho obligations of an incoming Ministry with regard to tho actions of an outgoing Ministry.

Mr. W. BUCKLAND said, it appeared to him that tliero were two sides to the bargain and that thoy should agree to the terras of that bargain. As a member of the Provincial Council at Auckland he was awavo of the arrangement made with the Goneral Government. They agreed that, certain lands, tho boundaries of which were given to them, and wliicli they estimated at; about 14 acres, should bo given for a certain Burn, on condition that that sum should bo spent in Auckland in building Government House. Evidently a bargain could not be made excopt both sides agreed, and he was convinced that the Provincial Council of Auckland would not allow the £25,000 to bo sent out of tlioir pockets. They had been under the impression that tho land belonged to the Province and not to the Colony, and they were not willing that the money should be taken out of the Province. Ho did not think that under ordinary circumstances tho Government would servo any Province as it had served Auckland. Governments wore like individuals, and when suffering from tightness of the purse strings they would, perhaps, do that which in other circumstances they would not do. The House would doubtless accede to the request of the Attorney-General in granting tho- Committee, but ho trusted the House would not insist upon tho breaking of tho bargain. Mr. STAFFORD said, after hearing the opinions falling from the Treasury Benches there was such a difference that ho was at a loss to see how the affair could be extricated from the present dead lock without some action being taken by the Legislature. He had heard the views of tho present Ministry -with great pain and astonishment that they should have descended fc> such a lino of argument a« 'tlidy had used on this subject. He found now that the defence on which they rested — that tho stand they took was the erection of a House by tho Provincial Government of Auokland. The agreement was that the new Government House should be erected in a

certain place in Auckland. That; was a bargain that ho defiod his hon. friend to overturn, and , which his hon. friend (Mr. Domett) had , accepted, and which was ratified by the larlia- '• nient. It was perfectly true that some blunder had crept into the Act, which had been taken hold , of by the Attorney-General, but which it had boon ! shewn had a parallel precedent, and which had been decided by high judicial authority, Chief ' -Justice Martin. He contended that that particular block of ground was as clearly defined as if it had 'been an island. On three sides it was bounded < by roads, and on the fourth by the barrack walls, < so that it was impossible for a mistake to occur as ; to the specific character of the block. He could understand the error in the acreage. The block j was not a parallelogram. It had many obtuso angles, and would require a surveyor of some repute to arrive at the exact idea of its size. The j cheque for the £25,000 was actually presented to the previous Government, but that Government ' did not wish to have any further trouble in the . matter ; so they said :— " take the money away to > the Commissioners who were entitled to .expend it, but the whole question came back to this. I Ins . sum was not to be treated as ordinary or extra- « ordinary revenue, if was a sacred deposit to be * expended on one purpose only. Now, had tho Province of Auckland even refused to expend tho sum in that way ? Had they not expressed a strong and unanimous feeling that this sum should be •expended in the erection of a Government House. He would now touch on another subject. Tho < Government seemed to treat the Province of l Auckland in a different manner to what they ] treated any other Province, and that was shewn in ' tho fact of them saying that they would not hand over to the people of Auckland a public Reserve 1 except for a certain sum of money and for * a certain purpose. Now he had himself j been at the head of a Provincial Government * for some years, and lie was not aware that, either in his capacity of Superintendent or head of tho Government, any Government had ever charged any Province for a public reserve. He, himself, i as first Minister of the Colony advised the Gover- < nor to grant to the Superintendent of Provinces j large grants of land especially in the Southern j Provinces without a single penny being asked in ' return. Now, why was the Province of Auckland ' to be treated otherwise ? Last Session tho Act j -which contemplated the sum was passed by tho ' House without opposition, although it established ( a precedent with regard to Auckland which had ( never been applied to any other Province. . It was j a mere matter of form to say (hat £25,000 was to , j be paid for the land, when what was intended was j that a new Government House should be built i \ and nothing else. Ho had handed over to the ; Province oi' Auckland the block of buildings in < which the Assembly sat, but lie only charged them for the buildings ; the land was never charged for, l and this was all the colony was entitled to do l with reference to Government House at Auckland. ' ; '■ That was the only payment ho would sanction in j '" this respect, unless the House would do the same 1 ' with all the other reserves in the colony. 1 If he would only act on such a sugges-j, tion tho gloom with winch their consti- , < tuents had looked on the present Session would ' * in a great measure be dispersed. He would advise him to have all public reserves valued and call J upon the several Provinces to pay for them, an ( and it would be treating them with the same 1 fairness that they had shown to Auckland. It was rather an act of impertinent interference for the Assembly to say in what manner the Provinces l should spend their own money. Mr. CURTIS said he was surprised that tho ' hon. member for Nelson (Mr. Stafford) should take a different view with regard to the provincial re- j serves in Auckland from that which he took with regard to the reserves in other provinces. The Government House in Auckland had actually been ! paid for by the General Government, but he ] would hand it over to the Auckland province \ without any "cturn of the money being made. Mr. STAFFORD rose to explain that lie had ) called particular attention to the fact that he admitted that while the General Government should ' hand over any reserves to the province without payment, it should be repaid for any buildings j which might be on them. • Mr. CURTIS said he could not admit the cor- ' rection. The question, however, would come on ' for discussion when the Committee brought up ' the report, and he merely rose to support the ( original motion. As to the formation of the Com- ( mittee the House already saw what kind of support the hon. member for Nelson (Mr Stafford) ' would give to the Auckland side of the question. Mr. Domett also took that side, and it was to be presumed the Superintendent of Auckland did. When ho (Mr. Curtis) considered how the Committee was formed, he thought, if any additions were made to its members, it 6hould bo one to take a different view. ■ : Mr. BRODIE said he simply rose to draw the ; attention of the House to the fact that the discussion was decidedly irregular, as there was no evidence on the subject before the House. He was surprised that tho member for Nelson (Mr. Stafford) had not refrained from giving his opinion on the matter. Mr, STAFFORD said he had seen sufficient : reason to justify him in giving an opinion. Mr. BRODIE said he might have done so, but still it was the custom in that and other Assemblies to wait until the Committee brought up the report. (Mr. Stafford said that three days debate had taken place in the Houso of Commons on a similar occasion.) He (Mr. Brodie) thought that the only subject for debate was whether the Committee should be appointed or not, but the member for Nelson had chosen to enter into the whole of the matter. Instead of tho members of the Committee being unbiassed, it was known exactly beforehand what views they would take. Tho debate in his (Mr. Brodie's) opinion had travelled very much from the subject, which was the appointment of the Committee. Mr. J. WILLIAMSON said he did not think there was any objection on the part of tho Auckland members to the Committee, but the hon. member, who had just sat down, had forgotten or did not notice that the Attorney-General stated bis view in such a way aa to give a bias to the case, upon which it was absolutely inevitable for a debate to arise. Tho hon. member stated in the course of his remarks (no doubt with an object in yiew) that the purpose for which this money was to be expended no longer existed, and that the removal of tho seat of Government from Auckland rendered the expenditure no longer necessary, and the hon. member at the head of the Government stated that the Treasurer would not be able to make up his financial accounts until the £ 25,000 was received. With respect to the point "Wliethor the erection of a Government House in Auckland was necessary. (Cry of " question." He (Mr. Williamson) was speaking to the question, as that point had been raised by the Attor-ney-General. He would ask the hon. member whether the fact of the removal of tho Beat of Government from Auckland should preclude the Governor from taking up his abode there at any time, according as the emergency might arise. It was necessary that some provision should be made for a respectable abode for tho Governor in Auckland. When it became the duty of the Superintendent of Auckland to hand over the £25,000 to the Treasury, he was prevented from doing so by the Provincial Council, till he should be informed in what way it should bo spent. !The members from Auckland would not be disposed to vote against the appointment of the Committee, for they presumed that the question would be considered fairly, and that such a report would be brought up as would do justice to both sides of tho question, which was not to be expected from Ministers, who, however well disposed to one part of the Colony were ill-dispoaed to another. The POSTMASTER-GENERAL said that all .parties appeared to agree that tho Bubjetit should

bo investigated by a Committee, but many mombora had digressed a'.lo^ther from the question boforo the House. The Attorney-General had simply mado such a statement of facts us was necessary to commend the motion to the attention of lion, members. Mr. G. GRAHAM said that, the AttovneyGeneral had overstated the case when he said that the site of the Government House in Auckland eon- j taincd fourteen acres, for (.he military aiil'iontms claimed a certain space round the barru'k wnll j as well as round every other wall they mi^ht I erect, which the Government could not take from ' them. The £25,000 was only agreed to he pi id ' by the Province, on condition of its being spent iiia specific manner, viz, in the erecii'in ol a Government House in Auckland. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he would reply in a few words, and not take up the time of the Hou.se unnecessarily, a:s had mainly been done by the lion, member lor Nelson (Mr. Stafford), who had alluded to a great many subjects, which , it was premature to allude to at this stage of the i matter. This was a case, which clearly demanded { enquiry, as had been stated by two hon. members, so that the House might form its own judgment, and any person taking a dispassionate view would admit that the course pursued by the Government was a- proper one. The member for Auckland had stated very fairly an argument. on tho Auckland side of the question, for he (the AttorneyGeneral) admitted that ifc was i'or the House to consider whether- or not a Government House . should be erected at Auckland. Ho was not asking the House to prejudge the matter. Hon. members might have various opinipns, some might think that it would not be right or prudent in the j present circumstances of the Colony, with the j ■ scat of Government removed from Auckland, to spend large sums of money in Government buildings there, as well as in Wellington. One point was noticed by the member for Nelson, viz, how far the Province of Auckland was chargeable for the property conveyed to it ; whether or not it should pay for the buildings, the actual sum paid out of the Treasury, and whether or not it should enjoy the general right of the Provinces to have , the public reserves free of any payment. Theso j were questions which should be considered, but the member for Nelson had mado some personal allusions. (Mr. Stafford objected). He spoko of the Government descending to an unworthy lino of argument. If the member for Nelson, acting ' as trustee for an estntc, wero to receive money on : it and hand it over to persons who had no right to it, he would find himself in an unpleasant posi- < tion, although he (Mr. Stafford) might say ho j heard such arguments with pain and indignation. 1 The case would be fairly and judicially examined, i and he (the Attorney- General) ventured to appeal 1 to the formation of the Committee, to prove that 1 the Government did not wish to take any advan- i (ago of Auckland. A new state of things had j arisen since tho passing of the Act, in 1863, and an investigation was necessary. With respect to 1 the acreage, lie (the Attorney-General) was dis- 1 posed to take the same view as the member for ' Nelson, although he was very hard on him. He " (tho Attorney-General) was of opinion that tho i site of the Government House in Auckland should ' be dealt with in the same way as tho Public Reserves in other Provinces. There was one part of the Act, which could not be passed over ; (hat , part, defining the land and stating its quantity to '. be eight acres, three roods, and five perches or [ thereabouts. (Mr. R. Graham — that was a cleri- 1 cal mistake, go on). What person could compute th c value of the land from that defi nition ? What was tho measure of value which the House had before it ? The House meant undoubtedly to hand over to the Superintendent that area of land comprised within certain limits defined in the Act, but it believed the quantity to be eight ■ acres, three roods, and five perches. The Government were bound when they found tho land to contain fourteen acres, to refer again to the House. With regard to the payment of the money, if it was in tho Treasury there would be no difficulty. The difficulty was that tho land had been conveyed, and there was no control on the part of the G-ovcrnnient, the Houso or the Colony over the money, nor was there any record in tho Treasury books of the transaction. In conclusion tho Attorney-General said that he was sorry that so much feeling had been imported into the debate by tho member for Nelson, and that ho desired' to do justice to Auckland as well as to every other town in the Colony. On the question being put the motion was carried. PETITION OF J. JOHNSTON. On the motion of the Attorney- General, the petition of J. Johnston was referred to the Committee on Private Grievances. THE ADMINISTRATION OP THE LAW. Mr STAFFORD in moving tho motion standing in his name, said he did so, inasmuch as in previous sessions very valuable reports from the Judges of the Supremo Court had from time to time been submitted to the Legislature, enabling them to form an opinion as to what was necessary I to facilitate the administration of law and justice. He (Mr. Stafford) was not aware, if any similar reports had been received during the recess, although he had understood from one judge at least that bo intended to call the attention of the Government to one point in the law. In case the Government had received any such communications, he (Mr. Stafford) should wish them placed on tlie table. He had used language in the motion, which was intended also to include correspondence of any sort between the Governmont and the Judges, because he had gathered from the public prints of the Colony (he knew not whether correctly or not) that at least one, if not more communications had passed between Sir G. Arney and the Attorney-General with reference to opinions expressed by tho Judge in his judicial capacity on the Bench. When ho (Mr. Stafford) heard that report he disbelieved it, and he was not prepared now to believe it. (The Premier, hear, hear.) But when ho reflected who the AttorneyGeneral was, he thought there might be some foundation of truth in tho report. If such a thing did take place (he was speaking on tho assumption that it did) there might be a doubt about the propriety of it, and tho House would be apathetic in the extreme to allow it to pass without notice. He (Mr. Stafford) included observations on political matters, where the liberty of the subject was interfered with, of whatever race he might be. (Hear, hear.) Ho was speaking in ignorance of tho fact, (hear, hear, from tho Ministry) and perhaps there was no foundation in the report. (Hear, hear.) If so, no person could be more happy than himself to hear that what he might call a grave direliction and an improper interference with the Judicial Bench had not taken place. Mr. J. O'NEILL seconded tho motion. The Hon. F. A. WELD said he was glad tho motion was so comprehensive. The hon. member for Nelson had spoken under a misapprehension. He (Mr. Weld) entirely agreed with him in tho general views he had enunciated. If he (Mr. Stafford) read the correspondence he would find nothing of tho nature he alluded to. Ho would, however, find that it had become his (Mr. Weld's) duty to draw the attention of the Chief Justice to certain expressions of a political naturo not affecting the administration of justice which were said to have been uttered by him. He (Mr. Weld) would leave the Chief Justice to speak for himself, as the papers would be laid on the table. Tho ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I think I understood the hon. momber (Mr. Stafford) to say '• in any judicial proceedings." Mr. STAFFORD : I did not mean expressions mado use of by the Judge in his private capacity or in the street. Tho ATTORNEY-GENERAL: You mean, speaking ex catht&ra, "on the judgment seat ;" in the street or elsewhere he is open to the same goneral observations aB any one else.

After some further remarks the motion was agreed to as follows : — " For copies of any correspondence, not hitherto laid on the table, between tho Government and Chief Jusiico Sir George Arney, or any other Judge of tho Supremo Court, relative to any opinions publicly expressed by the Chief Justice, or any such Judge, whether or not affecting the administration of the law in New Zealand or ' otherwise." j JUNGITIEEI LAND DISPUTE. 1 Dr. FEATTIERSTON moved — ! "That there be laid on the table copios of Mr. Bullcr's recent Reports upon the Rangitikei Laud Dispute ; together with copies of the Letters recently addressed by tho Chiefs of the three tribes engaged in the dispute to the Superintendent of Wellington. Also, copies of all correspondence on tho same subject between tho Minister of Native Affairs and Mr. Buller. Mr. MANTRLL: To what date is the motion intended to refer ? I presume it only means recent correspondence. Dr. : Yes. Carried. PETITION PROM AUCKLAND CHAMBEU OF COMMERCE. On tho motion of Mr. J. WILLIAMSON this petition was ordered to be printed. AUDIT COMMITTEE. The SPEAKER stated to the House that he appointed Thursday next for the election of tho Audit Committee. STANDING OBDEBS. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said some fresh standing orders had been prepared during the recess and it would bo convenient to consider them then in Committee. THE HAU HAU SUPEBSTITION. The DEFENCE MINISTER laid on the table papers relating to the Hau Hau Superstition. KEPLY TO HIS EXCELLENCY'S SPEECH. Mr. STAFFORD said that tho House was without any official cognizance of tho words spoken by his Excellency, nor did tho Honse know how long it would be so. This was the third sitting day, and it was desirable to have some information. It had been tho practice a very few minutes after resuming their seats on the opening day to have tho speech read and a motion mado for its consideration. The Hon. F. A. WELD said it was understood on a proviovs day thatthe reply was to be deferred as the Auckland members had not all arrived, and he did not wish to have a division until thfir arrival. He had expected to commence the debate that evening, but the events of the last few weeks had crowded so many papers on the printers that they were not yet ready, and it would be unfair to consider a reply" in which the removal of the Troops, and tho Ministerial Policy was alluded to without putting tho necessary papers before the House. On the next sitting day tho House would consider the reply and tho Government would lay before tho House their past conduct, and as far as might be expedient foreshadow their future policy. STANDING OBDEBS. The House then went into Committee on the suspension of Standing Order 59, to consider the new Standing Orders. Mr. Cracroft Wilson, C.B. in the Chair. After which tho Houso adjourned till Tuesday (this day.)